Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
2024: Ranked #1 Law Podcast
Host: Tyler Owen and Clint McNear discussing topics, issues, and stories within the law enforcement community. TMPA is the voice of Texas Law Enforcement, focused on protecting those who serve. Since 1950, we have been defending the rights and interests of Texas Peace Officers by providing the best legal assistance in the country, effective lobbying at state and local levels, affordable training, and exemplary member support. As the largest law enforcement association in Texas, TMPA is proud to represent 33,000 local, county and state law enforcement officers.
Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
#077- "Relationships" with Devin Vyner
Discover how professional relationships can shape your career and life in our latest episode featuring Devin Vyner, a seasoned Bertram PD sergeant. Sponsored by NEP Services, this episode explores the profound connections Devin has built over the years. We also celebrate the success of the 2024 TMPA Texas FOP Conference and the unwavering support from past leaders like Lon Craft. Learn how dedication, camaraderie, and remarkable achievements strengthen our law enforcement community.
A podcast hosted by 911 First Responders to discuss issues and stories in the field.
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email us at- bluegrit@tmpa.org
This episode of Blue Grip Podcast is sponsored by NEP Solutions. Proud Ruby sponsors for the 2024 TNPA Texas FOP Conference.
Speaker 2:And you remember the sights, the smells, and the EMS crew showed up and I remember some things, some inaction or some action that happened there that really pissed me off. And I remember yelling at one of them hey look, this is my guy, I need your best. But we we did CPR for 25, 28 minutes and finally transported them and he passed away at the hospital.
Speaker 1:Welcome back. Viewers, watchers, listeners. I'm your host, tyler Owen. I got a co-host in the house today. Welcome back, john Siriga. Thank you, tyler Rowan. It's a pleasure to be here. Absolutely, we are coming off conference. This is the first. By the way, the 2024 TNPA Texas FOP Conference was an absolute success and I am just now today feeling 100%. What about you?
Speaker 3:Yes, I took Monday afternoon off and Tuesday off.
Speaker 1:Well, for you, an off day is not really like 100% off day, that's true. You kind of lay it low.
Speaker 3:Yeah, those are long days Friday, saturday, sunday. For the staff they're 18-hour days. We're a little run down after but, like you said, it was the best conference we've ever had, ever Joint conference with FOP, yep and our attendance was the highest ever, had great events for the spouses. Yep Did painting with a twist one day, huge success.
Speaker 1:Shout out to Daryl Lasoya for putting all that together.
Speaker 3:But yeah, it was a great event Also raised about $70,000 for TMPA charities.
Speaker 1:I heard that the most ever yeah it about $70,000 for TNPA charities.
Speaker 3:I heard that the most ever it's amazing, great conference.
Speaker 1:We've got a couple people to give shouts out to because we couldn't do it without them, but first off, the Ruby sponsors for our conference the McLean Advisors and also NEP Solutions. They were the Ruby sponsors for this conference, so we greatly appreciate it. We absolutely could not do the work we do at conferences because of our sponsors and so huge shout out to you guys that sponsored the event. Also, speaking of charities Lawn Craft, past president of TMPA, significant donation for our scholarship accounts, and so you know you meet people that love this organization, that have served this organization, that aren't in leadership roles anymore because they've moved on to other things, but continue to do or serve, and Lon's never swayed from that. So thank you, past president Lon Craft. He and his wife are going to be coming on to talk about the scholarship and kind of what their intentions are and so forth. Great, great people. Yeah, and I think we had an election this past weekend.
Speaker 1:Yes, we did Congratulations also to TMPA President Ken Gardner, and Texas FOP President, our very own Blue Grip Podcast host, clinton McNair, who could not be here today because he's got some other stuff going on, not just with FOP but TMPA. So it was a good weekend, absolutely. It was a good weekend. Absolutely, it was a good weekend Absolutely. Why don't you intro our guest?
Speaker 3:Well, devin Viner, former TNPA employee, current sergeant at Bertram PD and a longtime TNPA member and that's actually what we're here to talk about today is Devin's experience over many, many years 14 of them, yeah 14 years in.
Speaker 2:TMPA in a minute. Legal defense. You've you've indulged in that.
Speaker 3:You've been involved in the political side of things with us, I think the charitable side. We'll talk about a line of duty death that your department correct.
Speaker 2:Yes sir.
Speaker 3:So yeah, welcome Devin.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate the opportunity to come on and hang out with you guys.
Speaker 1:You said something all ago. You said back to the family aspect of this place. If you don't live inside Austin and you're ever in the Austin area and you ever want to come by visit or just visit with your field rep, this organization has transitioned. Not that it didn't have the family atmosphere before, but I think we're more focused and more vigilant on the family atmosphere and becoming a family. You mentioned it a while ago, some past field reps you have a really good relationship with John Wilkerson, as we all do, and so when you said that it kind of you know, speaking back to conference, like my kids went and they were talking about the family atmosphere, you know Uncle John and man, it just means a lot.
Speaker 2:So when you said that, I just want to reaffirm that yeah, of that it kind of I just want to reaffirm that yeah, and it's really unintentional. I mean, you know, these, these don't start off. I think, like most guys. You know, we kind of stick to ourselves and kind of uh, uh, really fostering healthy, especially male, friendships for us is difficult, for me at least, and it was uh. I mean, I've been a TNPA member, I've been a cop for 14 years and from my first phone call 11 months into my career, where you know you're in crisis and you're panicking because you're brand new baby police and you may or may not have made a mistake and you don't know if this is the end of your career, at the beginning of your career, um, picking up that phone to make that call and still seeing those people, whether they're here at DMBA or not, they're still in the area.
Speaker 2:I mean, um, you know, the guy that picked up the phone that day is a Wilco deputy right now. And it's interesting that you unintentionally really kind of build these relationships and, aside from we'll go into it, I'm sure, later, but aside from it being a necessity to make that phone call and to build those things, you unintentionally they kind of offshoot into phone calls and driveway hangouts and bourbon night and teaching, co-teaching together, and things that don't have anything to do with class or anything to do with work, and those things. Really it's surprising to me still how everything is kind of intertwined and how deeply involved in one way or another being a part of this association has been for me in my personal and professional life. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, we typically like to start off the podcast because I don't want to dive into a rabbit hole Clint's always in my butt about me rabbit holing beforehand. So we typically like to dive off into who you are, where you grew up, how'd you get involved with law enforcement, where'd you start off at, and then we'll kind of quote, unquote, rabbit hole into some certain situations that TMPA has assisted you on through your law enforcement career. Yep.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm nothing special, you know, I don't come from a family of law enforcement, quite the opposite and I Outlaws yeah.
Speaker 1:You know they like to dabble.
Speaker 2:You know there's been a couple that like to dabble.
Speaker 2:I agree, you know, but you can't control them. But yeah, first cop in my family, it really kind of, you know, some family members really took on you know, like that's great for the supportive role and some others sent some inappropriate messages and we don't talk to them anymore, which is fine Part of the deal. But yeah, I've been a cop for 14 years. I did about a year in Georgetown and then nine out in Burnett and now I'm done shooting four now in Bertram. I did take two years off and came to teach full-time for the LEL grant, the law enforcement liaison grant, here at DMBA. That is one of the tech stock grants. I reached out to my chief. I was a reserve sergeant in Bertram at the time. I reached out to my chief there and I'm like hey, you know I'm looking at getting back in full-time. And he essentially said hey, y'all, I'll create a sergeant's position if you'll come work for me. I'm like all right.
Speaker 2:He made the money work. The city was gracious enough to allow that to happen and I came back to working full-time for him, and it's been wonderful ever since.
Speaker 1:Explain to the listeners that don't know where Bertram is and explain the culture or the population and kind of the demographics.
Speaker 2:If you blink you're through it. So we are. If you know where Georgetown is, we're in Austin right now. You drive 30 minutes north. You're in Georgetown just after Round Rock. If you get on Highway 29 and drive west another 20 minutes, you're going to hit Bertram. We're right between Liberty Hill and the city of Barnett.
Speaker 3:And if you don't slow down, you'll probably get a speeding ticket.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you're going to see a white ghost graphic explorer and you're going to see a familiar face in it. I do a lot of traffic enforcement. I have a good time stopping cars on 29 out there, oh yeah. Oh my gosh, it's a raceway. You can toss a rock and hit 10 people going 15 over. It's a. It's incredible.
Speaker 2:But that place is, that area is blowing up it is, and you know, I, I, so I live in Liberty Hill, um, and you know funny story I ran for for office there also, Um, and that didn't go as successfully as I had hoped, but not by much. Just recently, yeah, I ran for mayor in Liberty Hill. It was a special election for a one-year unexpired term and I was running against a current council member and somebody who's got a longstanding family there and I was essentially unknown and lost by 20 votes, which I think is respectable and we'll see From there. I still get to serve the city. I got appointed to the Planning and Zoning Commission there, so I'm a commissioner on that. I get to see plats and all kinds of really exciting things like that. But yeah, the place is blowing up.
Speaker 2:People are trying to move out there and get away from Travesty County and trying to get out there and build a life out there for their families. That's a little bit more conducive to family life. It's a great place to work. It's a great place to live. You know, bertram is getting more and more of those people that are fleeing Austin or even California, things like that, and, uh, planting roots out there. And it's been great and the city has been growing like crazy. I mean, like I said, I did most of my policing and burn it and for a lot of my career. You know, bertram was kind of that place. You're like they had, you know, a chief and some reserves and you'd hear stories and now you know, with, with with Chief Kyle coming in there, he's really turned this place around. We have a force of professionals now and it's been, it's been you have.
Speaker 3:It's been a delight.
Speaker 2:We have. We have nine full time cops now when we're staffed. We have one position that is unfilled currently, but we we have an officer in our school there. We have an elementary school there, but it's been three or four? Ooh Well, so they're burnt at CISD.
Speaker 1:So they're fighting.
Speaker 2:Okay, and yeah, it's been a, it's been a great experience. It's I I made a joke earlier off camera that you know I've, I've, I've been a cop for 14 years now and go figure, it's a tiny hill country agency that has finally given me a ghost graphics car which look hey, I know a lot of you started policing because you wanted to help people, and that's what you tell people. Uh, I'm not going to bullshit you. I wanted to carry a gun and drive fast and along the way you help people and realize that there's a lot of value and worth in that, but still that there's, there's fun to it. Also, we can admit that. And you know it was time to get a new vehicle last year.
Speaker 2:And Chief was like, hey, you know, most agencies are finding issue, finding good vehicles. And he's like, hey, they've got a, you know, a twin turbo Explorer. They have an interceptor SUV, but it's white. We don't have white vehicles. And he was like we can wrap it black and then put our graphics on it. Or we can wrap it black and then put our graphics on it, or we can leave it white and leave it unmarked, or we can maybe put some ghost graphics on it and look, hey, look, I buy shit all the time because it's cool. I want cool things too, just like all of us do. And when he said ghost graphics, I'm like, oh, that's so cool, like I, just I like it. So he went to council and asked them like hey, he stops cars, let's do it. And like I said, go figure, it's a nine-man agency in the hill country halfway through my career that put me in my favorite car I've ever driven. It's been.
Speaker 2:I was in a pursuit, I was working funny segue I was working STEP, strategic Traffic Enforcement, which is a tech stock grant funded overtime to stop cars. We have those grants, go figure, because that was also half the job as an LEL was to promote the STEP program and to help administer the STEP program. But I was in town working STEP last Friday and one of the bailiffs in Burnett had a guy escape custody from him and get into a pursuit eastbound into Bertram and I was on duty only because of STEP being paid by TxDOT to be there and the white CRV zooms past me and now I'm number two in the pursuit calling it for the bailiff who's in pursuit. We get up to like 130, and my vehicle is catching up.
Speaker 2:Staying with it. Man, there's no problems here. There were some other deputies that were trying to catch up and couldn't, so it was just me and the bailiff all the way into Liberty Hill, where the guy turned into a business park and ended up surrendering because it was a dead end.
Speaker 2:So it ended as great as it could have, as best as it could have and the best part about it I wish I could have been a fly on the wall in that courtroom. So he escaped in the district court right and instead of taking him to jail, he went right back to the district court in front of the same judge he just ran from. I wish I could have been there. It would have been great. I heard it was good.
Speaker 1:So we'll segue from the pursuit into Burnett Burnett's, where the incident took place. Which one?
Speaker 3:You had a couple incidents, yeah, or the situation that was explained.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, like I said, I did most of my career in Burnett and we had, when I started, I think, 16 cops and now they're pushing 23, 24. I still have a great relationship with several people there, one of the admin lieutenant, one of my academy mates.
Speaker 1:I've heard a lot of good things about Burnett PD. Yeah, man, I'll say this lovingly Me and John can identify and the other field reps when we start getting calls and it's continuous from one agency, we know there's a leadership problem.
Speaker 2:There's a problem right Issues yep Burnett we know, there's a problem, right.
Speaker 1:Issues yep. Burnett, we don't have that meat.
Speaker 2:You know, burnett really turned it around. Chief Lee is their current chief now and he's an outstanding human being, not because, you know, it's a neighboring agency, but I know the man and he has done wonders for that police department. They have needed someone like that for a long time and his leadership has really done wonderful things there. It's a great place to work. I know the guys there. We we actually lost our detective last year or I guess January of this year to burn it through attrition and he went over there and it's it's. It's a great place to be at. Like I said, I did most of my policing there. It was under a different chief, which is part of the reason TNBA was so involved in my life, but it was. Yeah, it was a great career there. We did um that made several phone calls. I've always been told, especially my current chief now. He's like hey look, if you're not getting complained on, you're probably not doing your job. It's. We all know how to avoid complaints. We all know how to avoid IAs.
Speaker 1:If I sit in a parking lot, they're going to pay me the same amount of dollars as if I go out and stop 20 cars today, and that is true with the exception of leadership, absolutely, administration. I don't have that luxury.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, um, and it's, in fact, that's part of the one of the reasons that I got a little bit of slack. Uh, because when you work, you're going to work for me. Like you're going to work. I want you to do the job. I don't need a rock star I would love a rock star but I just need somebody who's going to show up and do the job that they're paid to do.
Speaker 2:When it's going to be a continued issue of hey, look, get out there, get out there, get out there. Um, it starts, uh, becoming a supervisory issue. And now you're going to, you're going to make me have to do some things and, look, I'm still a cop's cop. To begin, a first line supervisor is the best job. In this job. You get to be a cop, but also you understand the bigger picture as well. Your job is to much like the LAL program was, to be the intermediary between cops and techs. Not your first line supervisor job is to be a real cop but also understand the command staff side of things and to help make your troops understand that as well.
Speaker 2:So you know, we had several phone calls throughout my time there where I'd call TMPA either for advice or not, and then in 2017, we had an OIS and I won't speak much on that, uh, in detail, but I was I, it was a Friday and I'd just gotten off um three in that morning, so I just got my babies cause I have them every day, I'm off and, uh, I said babies are 13, 11 and nine now, but they were a little bit younger back then and one of the troops on duty then got into a shooting and my captain called me.
Speaker 2:He's like hey, can you come in? We need the extra gun. So I came in, got the extra gun out of the safe because we issued firearms back then and kind of was first to watch the video as well, and that was interesting. I had to make a timeline of the shooting and the chief showed up with the patrol captain and came in and looked at the timeline and watched the video and then left without saying anything. That officer did end up getting charged and got a hung jury, I think last year, and I think the DA has re-indicted on a different charge, but I'm not sure that's going anywhere.
Speaker 3:But I don't know. I'm not intimately aware of that. It's still pending.
Speaker 1:Who's handling that New DA?
Speaker 3:Okay, no, travis Williams and Robert Rogers out of Dallas. Yeah.
Speaker 2:When that happened, um, it was. It was a eyeopening for all of the officers at Burnett, not necessarily with, like, the risk we face because we got into a shooting, but with the risk you face with administration. No shooting is a good shooting. I don't care what happened. No shooting is when you want to be a part of. We don't. We don't ever want to have to do that job, but sometimes, unfortunately, we're forced to. And to see what administration did specifically, we'll just say administration did.
Speaker 2:They wanted to terminate the employee even before it went to grand jury, which I pleaded with the chief. Like you can't do this, it's going to set him up. It's going to be that much easier to be like. Well, I mean he's already terminated. Well, of course, he's going to be indicted now.
Speaker 2:And that got some very public admonition, admonishment in our department meetings and so much of our city manager pulled me aside and apologized separately. But you know your job. Again, he wasn't my troop, but your job is to fight for the troop also while also understanding the bigger picture. And we actually lost. He did eventually get terminated after being charged, which is fine. That's neither here nor there. But we lost another great troop. Because he saw what happened. He quit law enforcement altogether, went to go deliver medical supplies. Thank God he's back in it now and he's actually in the area too and I get to see him at work sometimes. But you know, those things influence more than just the people involved directly in that kind of critical incident. And what's wonderful about TMPA? At the time I called and ended up being the JW, got a hold of McCabe and McCabe came out and did an officer rights class for us Completely free, so important.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, I learned so much and it's I'm sure you all understand that attorneys aren't cheap. You all know intimately.
Speaker 3:But we pay the bills.
Speaker 2:When JW is like, hey, we have to attach it to somebody's membership, you're probably going to get an invoice. It's not something you have to pay, but it's gotta be billed to somebody. And then that invoice came in. I'm like, wow, that's the investment that they're putting in us after this kind of incident. No matter, you know, it's already been and it's continuing to be an investment that the NPA is putting into that particular incident. But and now we're four years later I mean it's it's been a minute and but to to spend more money on the front end to tell the other officers at Burnett, hey, here's what happens, here's what you should be doing and shouldn't be doing. When you get into an incident such as this and a lot of cops don't understand that that you know, we, we, we see ourselves at the same team, right? Well, when you're sitting down with a DA investigator about something that maybe might not be a good idea to say as much as you want to say and it's important to know what you have to and what you should Absolutely.
Speaker 1:What we noticed probably way too far off, I mean, it happens too often is when they the is when the members will call right after an incident. We've looked no shit. We have had field reps that have been on calls with members that you can still hear shots being fired in the background, where they've shot at somebody which, hey, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for believing in us that much, you drilled it in their head.
Speaker 1:But our point is is that when they call we three or four years ago, collectively, we're like is this happening to you? Oh yeah, well, is this? So we all got together like look, make sure when these guys or females call, that their damn body cam is not still going, because we don't want a great example. If you just got in a shooting and your adrenaline's up, john is going to come up to you and say what man, are you good? Are you good? What happened?
Speaker 1:And then word vomit, and then boom, or your supervisor gets there, are you okay? Okay, okay, what happened? And you're continuing to record. So we have trained. But the flip side of that is is that if I walk up, you being a supervisor, and there's a face camera of me walking up, going and turning it off, the perception to the da's office sure that we're trying to hide something? Absolutely so. We always train. Wait for you know, first-class supervisor, get there, or some type of supervisor, explain what happened. This is the time, this is the date. I'm sergeant owen, blah, blah, blah. We are now going to discontinue the body cam because there's no evidentiary value, and then place that person in a secured spot, put them with a buddy, yeah, and so, um, get that you know that safety statement from them that word's getting out.
Speaker 1:We're seeing it less and less right. But if I could give advice anybody's listening this podcast, that would be my number one is listen. We all got in this profession because we we love to serve, but at that time the best thing you can do to serve your buddy is not asking that question and shut up.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Shut your mouth. Yeah, oh man, that was one of the things that, um. You know when, when Robert McCabe came out and did our class, I remember sitting there going, oh my gosh, I didn't know that. I'm taking notes like crazy because it's my job as these guys supervisor to also make sure that they're not doing dumb things like that and k them into saying something they're not supposed to. But at the same time, your word vomit's going to get you in deeper, deeper trouble potentially. And even even if it's a all in the up and up great shoot, there might be something wrong administratively. That happens, that they might try to hang you on because shootings are bad for any agency, it doesn't matter. But yeah, it was wonderful to have him come out and teach that class for free for the agency. It didn't cost the agency anything. It cost the NPA a pretty good penny but it taught 15 cops. Hey, y'all just went through this. Here's how it could have been handled better and that was wonderful.
Speaker 2:And now I use that. You know we're eight years past that. No, not that I'm just kidding we're. You know five, six years past that now. And it still pays. That one class pays dividends in the people that I supervise now and the coworkers that I work with. I love being useful. I'm not better than anybody, but I love having you know, I've got 14 years in. There's some things that I specialize in that are that, are awesome and have a good time, but I still get phone calls from people that aren't even my troops, like, hey, I got a question on this. Oh yeah, that's great. I had somebody come out to me. I was like hey, the DA investigator wants me to sit down with them and ask them about an issue here at this agency. Okay, or have you been read Garrity?
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:Miranda. No, so it's just like a volunteer interview. Yeah, probably not a great idea. I mean, you do what you want to do, but here's what I can see happening. Potentially it could be completely above board and Oculus, like bro time, like you know, let's talk what it could not be and you can say some things that can get you charged potentially right.
Speaker 2:You know, essentially we'd hope there's no, no wrongdoing and no criminal culpability there, but you don't know. Yeah, so having those conversations with just people you care about, you know other agencies that you work around like hey man here's what you probably should be doing Again make your own decision. I'm some of these, but I've learned so much just from having these critical incidents and having to go through them either directly or indirectly, that you're able to really spread that knowledge to the upcoming troops too.
Speaker 3:While you were at Burnett, you guys also had a line of duty death, didn't you? Yeah, we did. Let's talk about that.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll tell you right now. I'm not afraid to cry, so if I tear up I don't care. That's actually the shirt I picked today anyway. So it was, uh, it was December of 2019 and, yep Cause, the dates kind of mixed 20th, 19, december 20th of 2019.
Speaker 2:And I came on early, it was Friday and my uh, one of my day shift troops. I just moved from supervising nights to going to days. I'd actually recently got divorced and finally decided to use that seniority to reluctantly take a day shift spot, because I was a night shift cop for every year before that, didn't want anything different. I had seniority before that but didn't want it and we had hired. We only had two sergeants at the time. That kind of spanned three to three and we had just added two more sergeants, so we truly had a daytime supervisor and nighttime supervisor. So I went to supervise in days and one of my daytime troops we actually had like a one hour early show up so you staggered shifts and can get the late ones coming from nights, and we had a miscommunication. So we both showed up early, little after four o'clock in the morning and a medical call dropped right around the corner from where our police department was located at the time and we, like most agencies, we don't. We department was located at the time and we, like most agencies, we don't. We don't go to med calls unless we're requested, but for divine intervention I don't. That's the only thing I can explain.
Speaker 2:We decided we were going to that one and, uh, I was first on scene and I remember turning on to it's a short cul-de-sac, uh short dead-end street. It's got I don't know seven houses on it. And I remember looking to the right, looking at mailboxes, trying to find a damn. And, as you're kind of making your way around, I looked to my left and saw the correct address in the mailbox and saw what ended up being Jose's widow standing in the doorway of their carport. I'm like, oh shit, so throw it in park, run past her and find my officer who worked for me for the year before that.
Speaker 2:He again just started getting supervised by a different sergeant at the time, but we had a year together. Uh found him in his uh in the restroom and uh got him on, got him on his back and started cpr and we pumped on him for what felt like an hour but ended up being 20 something minutes. Um, it's crazy what you remember and you know I look there, the stigma is gone now in law enforcement. That's what we're pushing down to like Like it's okay to be vulnerable, it's okay to have critical incidents and it's okay to talk about it, and there's so many things out there, um, that are more than we can handle by ourselves, and that incident was, in particular, definitely one of them.
Speaker 2:And, uh, you remember the sights, the smells and, uh, the EMS, uh crew up, and I remember some things, some inaction or some action that happened there that really pissed me off, and I remember yelling at one of them hey look, this is my guy, I need your best. And I didn't get the response that I was hoping for, but we did CPR for 25, 28 minutes and finally transported him and he passed away at the hospital. Turns out he ended up having he was our canine handler and he had gone through canine training the entire day before on that Thursday before with his partner.
Speaker 2:What time of year was it December? So it was December. I guess they would have done their canine training December 19th. So they did, and if you've ever caught a dog you know where are you about out. So it was. Or I've never run a dog, but I've supervised two handlers at this point, so I know it is strenuous, it'll, it'll tax you, even when it's cooler outside in december. But he had, uh, he told his partner like hey, man, I'm not feeling great. Not feeling great kind of, as the night go on. That night went on and he was having to stay up overnight because he was working the weekend nights, right. So he's got to get that schedule right and was on, was playing video games and things like that, but he ended up having a heart attack, is what the ultimate cause of death was.
Speaker 3:And I remember. And how long after the training ended did he have the heart attack? 16 hours. And that's important when we talk about death benefits.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and that was so eye-opening also, that whole experience, and I'm sure we'll go into that briefly. But yeah, he was kind of declining state, mentioned it, whatever. And then the next day that morning he had a heart attack. And I remember standing in the ER and I got on the phone and called GW. I'm like, hey, man, here's what happened. He goes all right, great, not great, excuse me. He goes all right, this is a line of duty thing.
Speaker 2:And I remember going he died at home. What do you mean? He's like no, the, the proximity to his canine training and how taxing that can be, this eight. And then I remember telling the chief at the time like, hey, this, this is line of duty and here's why. And he was also like, oh, and then the struggle with dealing with the workers comp and the state benefits and then the fed benefits. I was actually assigned to the widow as a liaison there and it went for a while. And then it went to another guy there who's their captain now, great dude, and they initially, I think, declined state benefits, saying it wasn't line of duty, and fed benefits were approved. And if you've never done this, there's two completely separate entities that decide this. I had no idea, and also the process is not short.
Speaker 3:The decision at the state level goes to ERS and then at the federal level it's PSOB. Public Safety Officer Benefits.
Speaker 2:And they don't talk. No, and what one finds? Clearly, what one finds doesn't have to be the finding of the other Correct. And again the issue was okay, well, he wasn't at work. Well, again, drawing that nexus between here was a training that caused that, led up to that, was a precursor for the heart attack, and so yeah, how old was he 30. I think he just turned 30.
Speaker 3:Oh wow, and one thing that I would, if I can jump in if the initial ruling is a denial that can be appealed Absolutely. And that's really important for survivors to know is that it is appealable, and very often we prevail on appeal.
Speaker 2:It was, from what I understand, his partner who had preexisting heart stuff reached out to his cardiologist, who's, I think, is he still a Cedar Park lieutenant um scheinberg wow, actually we just gave scheinberg an award at our, at our conference.
Speaker 3:Oh well, yeah, all the work he's done.
Speaker 2:So jose's partner had his own heart doctor and was seeing him regularly, completely absent of law enforcement, and they reached out to scheinberg um, who I guess he's a reserve lieutenant for cedar park actually he's at travis county now forgive me, okay, yeah so he's.
Speaker 2:He's a full-time cardiologist, but a cop, and he has a passion for law enforcement and making sure our hearts are healthy. And Hootie reached out to Dr Scheinberg and said, hey, state denied, can you do anything about this? And the way the story was told to me is that, absolutely. He writes a letter to SOA, sends it into the state office administrative hearings for their appeal for state benefits and, without another hearing, overturned their previous decision and now it's approved wow and the state benefits.
Speaker 2:Really there's there's different things uh that those influence, you know, as far as property taxes and state funded education kids going to college absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:So that was a real big one and fortunately that was uh easily overturned, but it took a little bit of a fight. It was two years later before things were finally settled and at that point I had just started at TMPA as an LEL and now that he was officially approved, jose's name was going on the wall at DC during Police Week and again, he's going to get a huge head from hearing all this JW, this JW, that. But this is, this is the man that's really been, you know, influential in both my career and my personal life because of this association. That's where the original relationship came from, and then it became a close friendship after that. But JW reached out and he's like hey man, jose's going on the wall.
Speaker 2:This year, tm B is already going to pay for my room and stuff. If you want to cover these parts of expenses, it doesn't cost anything for you to come sleep in the room. So I tagged along with him and went to DC, dc that year to see Jose's name on the wall to be a part of the Memorial, and that was for me. It was a huge it's an experience.
Speaker 2:It wasn't a closure thing for me, but it was. It was part of the story that I needed to see Yep, and that was incredible. And that was, again, indirectly, a TNPA thing. I wouldn't have gone otherwise, Uh, and that was the healing part of of of my heart, that that got broken that day and the, the things that were said. I remember, you know that, the things I told him. You know whether he was still with us or not at the time, it is irrelevant, but it was. Again, it was a TMBA thing that put me there to be able to honor him and to be a part of that and I needed that for me too.
Speaker 2:So another again, we have our oris and then we have a line of duty death and unfortunately, to some things which I guess it probably wouldn't be proper to go too much into detail, but some things happened after the line of duty death, uh, that were improper, that then necessitated in retirement from the chief at the time and again, without going in detail, was a tmpa thing. You know, a conversation occurred that shouldn't have occurred and I picked up the phone and called JW. I'm like here's what just happened. He says absolutely not. He hangs up, calls city manager calls concerns of police survivors calls. Oh, there was another one. He makes several phone calls the next morning. This individual is on admin leave and that following Friday he's retired.
Speaker 2:Actually, if I recall correctly, jw actually put in a lot of work, had some really good communications with the city manager, had built an awesome relationship with the city manager directly so that he could pick up the phone and say these things and that's again a TMPA thing. That's the job, it's relationships.
Speaker 3:And actually in that situation a lawyer was not the best solution. It was a field rep doing what JW did.
Speaker 2:Yep Shoot. He should have been here for this, so you can just sit over there and you know today is he?
Speaker 1:you know he wears so many hats, just like all of our field reps and staff does, but he's up in Waco doing a burst class. Okay, waco IS Wicca YSTP, but anyway, no, he's special to us. He's J-Dub. Sometimes we want to hurt him just because he's so aggressive and he's so passionate, and sometimes that passion we can interpret differently. But he's a great guy and a huge asset to this organization.
Speaker 2:You know that boy's got a thick accent, so you hear him speak at first, or you hear him show up with his high and tight. You're like all right, buddy, what hayseed thing are you going to say? But he's super knowledgeable, Like he's a wise man.
Speaker 1:I can't think of a better team really at the Capitol than John Siriga, Mitch Landry, Brian Flatt.
Speaker 2:And Brian just got over there. Yeah, I love Brian too.
Speaker 1:Legislative liaison and then John Wilkerson man, they hit the ground running. And so it's again back to if you've ever been involved with the Capitol, if you put the work into this association or reach out, we can help you out. But the team at the Capitol, if you guys are ever interested, I would strongly, strongly encourage you guys to reach out and go down there.
Speaker 3:We'd love to have the members come down and walk the halls with us.
Speaker 1:And the state reps and senators love to see cops there testifying and helping with bills. It's interesting, yeah, but JW, he's JW.
Speaker 2:You know even Brian. He just went over to that position with JW and he left as a trading coordinator. He was TMPA's training coordinator Ten years and he was also influential in my professional development. He was my first-line supervisor class that I ever went to. He was a great instructor, brian was a great instructor and he's a good human too.
Speaker 2:That's a good dude. Um, I like him not just because he's a guy that gives us some free training and stuff, but I like the dude and he uh, we were uh doing a patrol rifle instructor course just a few months ago. Out and burn it. He was an instructor free on that one. We did a camera, what it was? It's like a reactive target training where they put up those big foil reflective things and you shoot at what are real people but not, it's like the, it's in the mirror yes it, it's an angle thing.
Speaker 2:And I remember him as a part of that too. Like it's, it's. It's funny. It's like these people pop up in your life over and over and over again and develop you and do want a good cop. But that feeds into your your personal life too. It takes a lot. It takes a lot to earn respect of your peers. It takes a very little to lose it and it's. I'm grateful for the pouring of professionalism that TMPA has done for me as a cop, as a supervisor, and it's made me a better man too. I see good examples of people who I think are great people, whether it's instruction methods or whether it's just how you interact with each other on breaks.
Speaker 2:When I left Burnett, I taught damn near full time. It was still an adjunct position, but I taught a ton up at CTC's police Academy at central Texas college in Killeen, and again, that opportunity was only afforded because of the relationships that I'd built, so I'd be there. You know that's actually how the LEL position kind of came about, is I was teaching firearms for the Academy with with JW, and I see the position pop up. I and I see the position pop up. I'm like what is this? I've never even heard of this, he's like, ah, you'd be great for that, put in for it. And that's kind of how that started for a couple of years when I got to be an employee here and that was awesome. It's just it. Yeah, it's my.
Speaker 2:The investment that I've made in being a member for 14 years is it pales in comparison to the investment that they put in me? And it's been a great to be a part of not just a law enforcement family but this association's family, and it's to be able to come to other officers that are either going through critical incidents or see other people go through them and they're like hey man, what should I do? Like, hey, look, you can make your own choices, but I can tell you my stories and you can decide from that. And if you still choose somebody else, then that's on you. Um, I'll still be here to take a phone call and be like hey man, that sucks, but at the end of the day, you know the relationships that are built here and among people in this room or in the training environments where they come out and teach for free, for you or for very low cost.
Speaker 2:I remember we had TMPA out I mean time after time out and burn it to come teach us a topic it doesn't you know, it doesn't matter what. And it's hey, man, it's just a hundred bucks for the day or whatever the number was. And like really to send 20 cops through, plus outside agencies. Like, yeah, just you just cover the original tuition cost and we'll make it work. We're bettering all these officers for such a low. It's worth its money.
Speaker 1:Low amount? Yeah, absolutely. Well, I can tell you on behalf of the majority of the staff here is all prior law enforcement. Really, being from Texas, we're not really going to give a shit, but the fact that if you're a cop and you serve in this capacity, what we do on this end, it truly is an honor to wake up every single day and have the ability, because of our members, do what we get to do. It's awesome, it is the best job. Our supervisors are amazing. Hear that Amazing.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 3:I mean, the employees truly do have a passion for it. Budget time is coming up. I knew it. I knew it. I knew he was going to try to blame it on something.
Speaker 1:But anyway, man, I really appreciate you coming on, absolutely it's been a pleasure. Yeah, it's been great, Since you've never been exposed to blue grip. But just a little bit, I'm glad that you didn't study for the practice exam.
Speaker 2:Oh, there's a test.
Speaker 1:There is a test.
Speaker 2:There's three rapid fire questions. Oh, hold on, let me take a swig of my bourbon. I'm kidding, it's tea, what is?
Speaker 1:your favorite line from a cop movie or your favorite cop movie? What is your favorite, all-time best patrol car and your favorite drink of choice?
Speaker 2:I'll go the easy one first. Well, second, easy. I'm a bourbon guy. I had a buddy that turned me on to bourbon, not just like I drink Jack. Jack's not bourbon, that's whiskey. They are different. They are different Now. I have a bourbon rack that's got thousands of dollars of bourbon just stacked up on it. I was in a previous relationship where they're like you have too much alcohol, yeah, but I'm not drinking it. If I were drinking it, let's crack this bottle. It's a bonding thing for us, just like midnight coffee time with all the agencies at Stripes. That's bonding time. You're building relationships. Same thing with bourbon. It's a bourbon thing for me, it's a guy thing, it's a relationship thing for me. So, having the guys over to crack a new bottle, love me some bourbon. And this guy, john, got me hooked on um, you know old fashions.
Speaker 2:He was the first person there and then, so now I'll take a bottle of bourbon if I don't like it. Uh, neat, then I'll make an old fashion out of it and drink the rest of it, uh it's the best place to get an old fashion.
Speaker 1:And I, it was all of us, we were all together. Uh, the fam I call it right, the fam in houston at the, my gosh, they smoke them. I mean, everybody's had smoked.
Speaker 3:That was when really they started becoming hot and heavy. Yeah, I hadn't. That was the first place I saw smoked and my wife got the smoked margarita.
Speaker 1:Oh, and it was awesome, okay, anyway.
Speaker 2:I just started changing it up. A simple syrup. I'll use brown sugar and muddle that in the bottom, and then of course you've got to get good cherries.
Speaker 1:I've got to tell you this funny story. So I live in Wimberley and so we're at this bar hanging out. Okay, it's a bar, but it's got a family atmosphere Very common in central Texas, okay, so don't look at me all crazy. And so they had a really young waitress that was a Texas State student, a student. And so she didn't know that there's a difference in woods and so what's prevalent in Wimberley it's mesquite, and so she smokes an old-fashioned with mesquite wood Mesquite, like I'm not talking about shit that she got at the store, oh, like it's crackling and popping as she's Like the shit came out of the yard.
Speaker 1:She chopped a tree down with her bare hands to make your old fashion name. Well, it wasn't mine, it was a friend of mine. But when she walked off it was quite comical Anyway.
Speaker 2:Favorite cop car. I can do that one. Next it's my current one. I think that was pretty obvious. That EcoBoost, it's a 3.0. They went smaller on the engine but still good output. The all-wheel drive on that man it's even at high speeds. You know, I don't. I don't like driving fast because I've crashed before, but when you're fast, man, it's stuck to the ground. I'm so impressed by that thing. It's got a federal signal package in it, that's, and the lighting is just. It's brighter than our stuff that has an overhead bar. We talk all the time about it like it is. Chief got a complaint last week. His lights are too bright. Oh, bummer, you saw him.
Speaker 2:Oh good good, good, good. Um, you know, sometimes they come with that little low power setting and I reprogrammed it to do other things. I'm like I don't need that yeah, and now I'm like I might need to add that back um, but yeah, it's been. It's been an incredible unit. I've been in it for a year now and it's no complaints, other than the ride's a little stiffer, yeah, but I'll take that.
Speaker 1:Um, yep favorite cop movie. Movie or line from a cop movie.
Speaker 2:Oh man, it's a line from a cop movie. It's not incredibly appropriate, but it kind of fits my personal life too. Find a chick that's down for you and won't fuck your friends.
Speaker 3:From End of Watch. I like it.
Speaker 2:It's funny, it's just kind of replayed my life, but yeah.
Speaker 1:John, Thanks for having me. But yeah, John great having you on. Thanks for having me. Well, you are the boss. I mean, if you want to come on, it's just. Hey, I'm jumping on today. I love having you on. Well, thank you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, it was fun Devin great to see you. We miss you. You did a great job.
Speaker 1:Lie to these people thank you for having me. I appreciate the opportunity a whole lot coming on or coming up.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know we've got a new board, several new board members. We're gonna be pushing on information about that, giving shots out to uh again, the conference, the sponsors and and man shout out the past president lawncraft. Uh, just an amazing. I was shocked when I heard the announcement of how much money he was donating to uh kids and to benefit this organization's next legacy, right? So anyway, we are going to try to recover, continue to recover from conference. Seems like some of us are sick. I don't want to say the C word, but maybe or maybe the flu, I don't know.
Speaker 2:But there's something else going around and I had something that was sick for five days and the cough lingered for like eight weeks.
Speaker 1:And it's not get up on every maybe cedar fever. I don't know, we are in central texas, but anyway, you guys take care, stay safe, reach out if you ever need anything. God bless you and, as always, may god bless texas. The name Zafira means ''Pure'' Religion, ''major'' Religion, ''muslim''. Thank you.
