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Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
2024: Ranked #1 Law Podcast
Host: Tyler Owen and Clint McNear discussing topics, issues, and stories within the law enforcement community. TMPA is the voice of Texas Law Enforcement, focused on protecting those who serve. Since 1950, we have been defending the rights and interests of Texas Peace Officers by providing the best legal assistance in the country, effective lobbying at state and local levels, affordable training, and exemplary member support. As the largest law enforcement association in Texas, TMPA is proud to represent 33,000 local, county and state law enforcement officers.
Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
#076- "FACTopia" Special Edition
Ever wondered how a law enforcement association navigates the murky waters of false allegations and legal battles? Join us for an eye-opening conversation with Kevin Lawrence, Executive Director of TMPA, and Randy Doubrava, TMPA's General Counsel, as they dissect the 2019 Javier Ambler case. Discover the rigorous processes behind TMPA's legal coverage decisions, including the critical timelines, legal intricacies, and the specific conditions that led to one officer being denied coverage and another reinstated. This episode offers a rare, behind-the-scenes look at how TMPA ensures comprehensive support for its members, even in the most challenging situations.
Our discussion sheds light on TMPA's unwavering commitment to its members, emphasizing the association's dedication to legal protection and member well-being. We delve into the comprehensive nature of TMPA's legal plan, including the rights of members to appeal and the meticulous review of legal expenses. By tuning in, you'll gain a deeper understanding of how TMPA operates beyond hyperbole and rhetoric, focusing on facts and the true essence of member support. Whether you're part of law enforcement or simply interested in legal protections, this episode promises to enlighten and engage.
email us at- bluegrit@tmpa.org
This is not within our normal daily business of TMPA to talk about our members' legal troubles.
Speaker 2:That is correct. We try to keep all that really confidential.
Speaker 1:The reason we're here is because there's another competing organization out there throwing out allegations that are not even closely related to the truth. Yes, hello, I'm Kevin Lawrence. I'm the executive director at TMPA.
Speaker 2:And I'm Randy DeBrava, general counsel for TMPA.
Speaker 1:First of all, we appreciate everybody tuning in. We just want to take an opportunity to respond to some false information that's out there about a critical incident that we responded to and dealt with what's now five years ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the incident occurred back in March of 2019.
Speaker 1:2019. The Javier Ambler case started out in Williamson County, wound up in Austin. Right, yeah, two TMPA members involved. Yes, where the incident wound up was actually not far from this building and vehicle. The vehicle that was being pursued crashed out officers, the guy, the driver, put up resistance. They had to subdue him. He eventually died. We were. We sent an attorney out to the scene to represent the officers and it is correct, okay, and the attorney represented those officers through an investigation that apparently was concluded fairly quickly. At least everybody thought it was concluded.
Speaker 2:Yes, through an internal investigation at Williamson County.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then the thing just went silent, went dormant right for 15 months Approximately, something like that. Okay, and then video either body cam, dash cam, video, whatever was made public and there was a big uproar, there was a big stir about this case and by then the two officers one of them had dropped his membership a year, like as soon as the case was, as soon as the initial investigation was done, he dropped his membership.
Speaker 2:He dropped his membership about six months before this became a big issue and it looked like they were going to get indicted.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we go from March of 19 to June or July of 20. So sometime around Christmas of 19 or January 1st of 20, he dropped his membership.
Speaker 2:He actually dropped his membership in November of 19.
Speaker 1:November of 19. So some eight months before the thing rears its head again Right.
Speaker 2:The other one at that point was three months delinquent on his dues At the time that they had called in for coverage on the criminal indictment he was three months delinquent on his dues.
Speaker 1:So the criminal indictment happened when this thing went public and the video came out. How soon did the indictment happen? I don't remember, okay, but it all happened rather quickly at that point. That's what I remember. Okay, so, under our plan and, by the way, the TMPA legal plan is an ERISA trust under federal law, and so it's all documented, it's very well documented, drafted, and we have to administer that plan and according with the terms, it's like a contract we have with our members. Okay, so since let's call him deputy number one, since he had voluntarily terminated his membership while and we don't know if he joined another legal plan or not, do we? We do that? Okay, but because he had voluntarily terminated his membership eight months before this criminal case came up, he was no longer entitled to coverage under the plan. That is correct. Okay, the other ones because he was simply delinquent something less than 90 days. He had the option of going and paying his back dues and getting legal coverage.
Speaker 2:That is correct and that is what happened. We allowed him to pay his back dues and provide him legal coverage.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we provided an attorney for one of them, but not for the other. Now deputy number one. When he was told you're no longer eligible for coverage on this event, he had a right to appeal it. Yes, and he did. He appealed it to the TMPA board of directors. Okay, so he presented his case to the TMPA board 18 full-time working cops from across the state of texas and they ultimately decided what, uh to deny his appeal that he wasn't entitled to coverage under the legal plan.
Speaker 1:Okay, so now we move another four years further along. Three and a half years further on, the case is finally gone to trial and the two deputies have been acquitted yes Of whatever criminal charges were brought against them. Have we paid all the legal bills for deputy number two?
Speaker 2:Yes, we've paid all the legal bills that have been submitted to date and those are the ones just prior to trial, and we have received in and are in the process of paying all the ones for the trial.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we're still in the process of finishing. Do you have any idea? Ballpark figure how much has TMPA Legal paid on this claim so far?
Speaker 2:So far we've paid $63,000. I expect it to probably be twice that by the time it's all done.
Speaker 1:Okay, so somewhere in the $120,000, $130,000 range total by the time we're done. Of course, there may be some more stuff, ancillary stuff coming along still, and that includes TNPA paid for.
Speaker 2:I think it was five or six expert witnesses in the case. I don't think all of them were used. That was a decision by the trial counsel that they thought that it would be better if we didn't use a specific witness, just based upon what occurred during the trial Right.
Speaker 1:Have there been any times when the attorney and, by the way, the attorney representing deputy number two does he do a lot of work for TMPA?
Speaker 2:No, but he has done some work for TMP in the past. Okay, he's a private practice attorney.
Speaker 1:Yes, he submits his bills, we pay him. We don't control how he defends the officer. That's between him and his client. That is correct. Okay, and have there been any requests that you submitted saying I need approval to spend money on this expert witness or I need money for this private investigator? Anything that he's requested that we have denied? No?
Speaker 2:I did review them, talked it over with them as to why, to make sure it's reasonable, and then we approved each of those experts or jury consultants too.
Speaker 3:So you know, we set up our representation so that typically, if we have multiple clients, we're both representing each of those clients, right, unless there's a conflict issue. But so Ken and I both represented TMPA member Zach Camden, but I was responsible for interfacing with TMPA and sending invoices, and the direct answer to your question is no, there's not any legal bills pending. All of those have been paid. They were paid relatively quickly and throughout the course of representation.
Speaker 3:Every time we asked for something from TMPA you know financing for an expert, or we need this thing, or we want a jury researcher all of that was covered. It was covered without hassle, and so, from my perspective, tmpa treated Zach Camden exceptionally well. There was never a situation where we needed an expert or an investigator where we were denied. There was a couple, kate, maybe one time when Randy, the general counsel, had some legitimate questions about what we were asking for, and the reason he had those questions is because I didn't do a good job. In the rush of everything that has to get done, I didn't do a good job of saying this is what we're asking for and this is why we need it.
Speaker 1:Now, normally we wouldn't come out publicly and talk about cases like this. Now, normally we wouldn't come out publicly and talk about cases like this. It's not within the normal daily business of TMPA to talk about our members' legal troubles, that is correct.
Speaker 2:We try to keep all that really confidential.
Speaker 1:The reason we're here is because there's another competing organization out there throwing out allegations that are not even closely related to the truth.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay. So what would you say to members who hear those accusations, whatever? What would you say to them If they're concerned? Who should they talk to?
Speaker 2:And they can reach out to me. They can reach out to the attorney that tried the case if they wanted to and we don't want to— I don't want to pressure them into it or anybody at TMPA and we can provide them information about what we've done and by then hopefully we'll also have the total amount of the bill, and you know what I will.
Speaker 1:Man Doug O'Connell is the attorney, so it's not like we have a bad relationship with Doug. No, we do not. We have a good relationship with Doug.
Speaker 2:Does he wind up representing both of them? That I do not know. I don't think so, but I think someone he was, he knew, represented the other officer, another attorney that he knew, I think.
Speaker 1:Okay, not necessarily in the same law firm. That is correct. Okay, all right.
Speaker 2:So we don't know, we don't know the specifics of that and I try to stay out of that just concerned about our member.
Speaker 1:Just like we don't know whether or not Deputy no 1 had joined some other legal plan, whether they helped cover his legal fees or not, Right?
Speaker 2:we don't know the answer to that question.
Speaker 1:Is there anything else you can think of that we need to put out there right now?
Speaker 2:I mean just that if you're a member of TMPA and you get in any kind of incident, we're going to take care of you and we're going to spend whatever money we need to spend to take care of you in any kind of incident.
Speaker 1:we're going to take care of you and we're going to spend whatever money we need to spend to take care of you, and it's a very specific plan that is laid out about what's covered, what isn't covered, you have a right to appeal it, not only to the TMPA board, but you can even take it to the Federal Department of Labor if you want to under our ERISA plan. There's all kinds of safeguards in this to make sure we do what we are supposed to do under our legal plan. So I guess we'll close by just saying this. Anytime you hear rhetoric, hyperbole, accusations, whatever from anybody about whether or not TMPA is taking care of our members, just remember this we're the best because we represent the best. We take care of our members. That is job.
Speaker 1:One around here is always take care of the members. Everything else will handle itself. If you have questions, reach out, call us, call the attorney, call the members, call whoever. Get the facts. Don't listen to the hyperbole. Unfortunately, there's people out there that they want to throw out disparaging accusations for their own benefit and not because they're actually looking out for your best interest. So give us a holler. We appreciate you. Please stay safe. We'll be here if you need us. Thank you.
