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Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
2024: Ranked #1 Law Podcast
Host: Tyler Owen and Clint McNear discussing topics, issues, and stories within the law enforcement community. TMPA is the voice of Texas Law Enforcement, focused on protecting those who serve. Since 1950, we have been defending the rights and interests of Texas Peace Officers by providing the best legal assistance in the country, effective lobbying at state and local levels, affordable training, and exemplary member support. As the largest law enforcement association in Texas, TMPA is proud to represent 33,000 local, county and state law enforcement officers.
Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
#106- "Bear's Necessities" with Melania Doe Part 2
In Part 2 of this gripping two-part series, host Clint McNear goes beyond the investigation and into the aftermath—what really happens when a life is traded for testimony.
The story of Melania Doe’s family continues, but this time, the focus shifts from the criminal case to the collateral damage. Bear, a longtime federal informant embedded deep within violent criminal networks, made the ultimate trade: his freedom for cooperation. But that deal didn’t come without cost.
Through firsthand accounts and Clint’s own experience as the lead detective, this episode reveals the rarely talked about side of the Witness Protection Program—one where trauma doesn’t end with relocation, and the promise of safety often comes with lifelong consequences.
For Melania, growing up under new names, new homes, and a constant fear of exposure wasn’t a life—it was a sentence. This episode dives into the emotional toll of secrecy, the breakdown of identity, and the silent suffering that shadows every person forced into hiding.
This isn’t a story about justice. It’s about survival.
email us at- bluegrit@tmpa.org
That's my dad's MO. If he could find you, if he could find that you've got some kind of evil in you, he would pull it out.
Speaker 2:And then flip you and flip you if he needed to.
Speaker 1:The perfect timing. He had to wait for just the perfect timing, to where you fit into his plan, to where all the puzzle pieces would fit, and he'd collect the whole set until he had the plan just perfect.
Speaker 3:On the last episode of part one of the Blue Grip Podcast.
Speaker 1:The one night right before it happened.
Speaker 2:Ronnie, one of the Blue Grit Podcast, the one night right before it happened, Ronnie the kingpin or the shooters, the shooters. Wow, I did not know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the shooters had come over to our house to, I think, to finish paying on the debt that was owed, and dad made us all go to our room. We all shared a room. All five of us children shared one big, huge bedroom. Well, um, the kids were getting to be a little too much, so I walked out in the hallway and they didn't know I was there. So I got to hear a lot of the conversation that was going on about what was about to transpire, and it was exactly that he was about to get one of their girlfriends out of jail together together. Well, that the night they left, when they left that night, my dad threw the $20,000 in the floor and we all played in it.
Speaker 1:Well, by the time the boys made it back to the back bedroom, I heard three kicks and the door was open. I was standing up. Two gentlemen come in the house. You hear my grandmother say, oh shit, my grandmother did not answer the door. My grandmother was standing in the house. You hear my grandmother say, oh shit, my grandmother did not answer the door. My grandmother was standing in the kitchen. So when she saw him, she walked towards them and she put her hands up and she said oh shit. And the moment she said, oh shit, they fired and it shot her in, her hand, went into her cheek, blew the side of her face off and she landed on the ground. A second shooter shot me in the shoulder. I played dead. I watched them go down the hallway. I watched them go into my brother's bedroom and open fire. I believe I heard six or seven shots. I'm not even sure how many times they shot. I just remember thinking to myself I'm not going to have any family left.
Speaker 2:Grandma passed. Three of the kiddos were home you and your two baby brothers, Mom, Dad and two older kids were gone. How long were you on the?
Speaker 1:hospital. Let's see who got out first. Mark got out first because he was shot in his Achilles tendon, then I got out after that, and then I got out after that. And then Adam was the last one to be released because he was in ICU for a while.
Speaker 2:He was shot.
Speaker 3:He was shot twice in the chest. He was shot rough yeah.
Speaker 2:What did life look like after getting out of the hospital?
Speaker 1:Life looked like a whole lot of hotel rooms, a whole bunch of Back in Witsak. Picked us back up, put us places that we didn't know anybody didn't. We didn't know anybody. We weren't allowed to go to my grandma's funeral. Nothing like that.
Speaker 2:So you're a little older then. Did you realize then that that's the same?
Speaker 1:program you had been in when you were younger, when you were a kid. Yeah, you have the same people basically around. Ic Smith is one of them that's been with us for a really long time.
Speaker 2:Is it like a handler or something?
Speaker 1:They're what they call angels. That's what they were described to us about is that they were called angels. We were to address them as angels. There was another one too. I want to say his name is Vince Like a handler?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like a handler.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they gave all the children a handler, basically.
Speaker 2:So y'all had the same WITSEC angels as the first time through. I believe so If they did change.
Speaker 1:It didn't change much the original number that we were given in case an emergency happened and our passcode that we were all given. That's been the same throughout our whole lives. There's a 1-800 number that you can call and you tell them your first and last name and give them your security pin and they'll come pick you up if something happens.
Speaker 2:So you survived being shot, and then you're right back in the hellhole of Witsuk.
Speaker 1:Together. All the kids and everybody together for a little bit until, um, they took my dad and then, when they took my dad, um, they arrested him. They got him on charges of uh, he was a felon and they found guns in the house after that was in the closet and they charged him with that felon position of firing.
Speaker 3:yeah on a On a state case, or did we know a federal case?
Speaker 1:To be honest with you, I have no idea, because if you look up my dad's record, it doesn't even show that that I've been able to find. And I've asked my mom, hey, did they give him charges? And she's like I think they just kept him and didn't even give him charges.
Speaker 2:Or he worked them off and they disappeared.
Speaker 1:Yeah, something like that. So it was very uncomfortable once they took my dad, because that's all of our security you have to keep in mind.
Speaker 2:Physical or emotional, or a combination.
Speaker 1:It was a combination. You know, dad, he'd beat the shit out of you, you.
Speaker 1:but he would also stop people from hurting you, yeah, and you go to him and say, hey, I'm hurting, and he would give you the most beautiful explanation and really make you see a different side of it sometimes, and then other times he would completely drag your ass for what you were telling him. It was really a luck of the draw. Whether dad had been drinking, whether he was on his pain medicine, whether he was abusing his pain medicine, it really had to do with a combination of the two. He had the gift of gab. He did. He had the gift of something Bullshitting.
Speaker 2:Gab Gift of gab Con artist Con. But I mean, I'm serious, when he would turn on the charm, he could speak, well, he could smooth anybody. Like.
Speaker 1:I've seen people give them their pickup truck Like here, Ronnie, here's my takeoff, Excuse me. What so? But they picked him up and they put him in jail for a while and our life was wild during that time, Like like my mom didn't know what to do. She had five kids. She didn't know what to do. The feds gave her some money and said get the hell out of here, we're not responsible for you anymore so you left Witsak we had no choice.
Speaker 1:We got kicked out when they took my dad and put my dad in the pit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when a when a my understanding is is when a um, not victim, but a witsack person, a party to that, party to that, becomes a defendant, uh, to any level, uh, and that to my knowledge also, if, if, a, if a descendant or a dependent would have even been a defendant on on a case, it could have violated the witsack. So y'all get thrown into the wind.
Speaker 1:We got thrown into the wind hard, hard. You have children. I'm just going to speak for my own self because I know what I went through. I had PTSD. Bad like, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, like. We moved from a hotel where I got to see my dad all the time to moving in with my aunt, who cannot stand us, who cannot stand my mom, who we ended up being their slaves, basically cleaning their house, doing their dishes, washing their clothes, washing their. Whatever they needed us to do we were doing.
Speaker 2:What state was that?
Speaker 1:I was in Arkansas it's in Perryville. So while we're living there, my cousins were very interesting, to say the least, especially my youngest cousin and my mom had simply had enough and she said nope, we're done. And so my mom saved every little dollar she could and moved us to Benton, arkansas, and my mom got a job working at a pawn shop for Doi Sutton and Doi loved my mother so much Like he ended up giving her half of the pawn shop before my dad got out of jail and, um, doi ended up buying us a house and he was a really, really good man. He didn't want my mom, he just wanted to make sure that my mom knew what security was.
Speaker 2:Generous.
Speaker 1:Yes, he was very generous. Well, when my dad got out of jail, my dad found out about Doi and my dad severed that connection and that friendship as quickly as he could. He was jealous, he was ugly, he was violent. He was everything that you could imagine my dad did, from stealing from Doi to beating Doi's ass, to setting Doi up in situations that could have gotten him killed, to all kinds of running drugs out of his pawn shop to man. It was ugly.
Speaker 2:That seems to be a theme. It seems to be a theme that persists with Tally, with his best friend that was the attorney in Little Rock, yeah To Doy, who was genuinely only just trying to help his family. He really was.
Speaker 1:He was just a good person. The attorney out of Little Rock wasn't near as bad as the attorney out of Benton, so can I say names on here?
Speaker 2:That's your call, all right.
Speaker 1:So there's an attorney called Ray the attorney out of Benton. So can I say names on here? That's your call, Alright. So there's an attorney called Ray Baxter out of Benton. That man is far worse than the attorney out of Little Rock. He would put his son up to stuff a lot like my dad would put his son up to stuff. His son was David and as far as I know, David has been in and out of trouble a lot, but that's my dad's MO. If he could find you, if he could find that you've got some kind of evil in you, he would pull it out and he would slap a dress on that bitch and parade you down the street.
Speaker 2:And then flip you if he needed to.
Speaker 1:The perfect timing. He had to wait for just the perfect timing, to where you fit into his plan, to where all the puzzle pieces would fit, and he'd collect the whole set until he had the plan just perfect so mom gets away, buys you guys a house, dad gets out of jail, severs the tie.
Speaker 2:What does life look like then?
Speaker 1:uh, rants and repeat. We went back into I'd kind of say Witsack, but not really. They just picked us up and moved us to Colorado, up near Trinity no Trinidad and gave my dad an undercover investigation to try to pop these people. The main guy's name was Wesley, but my dad got all of us involved in that one. I was to befriend their daughter. Their daughter's name was Melanie and my dad bought me a Chevy Cavalier convertible and I used to go over and pick Miss Melanie up and I'd hang out with her. It was my first friend that I actually got to have, where I got to get away from the house and actually be a child and have a little bit of fun in, and you know, my 17, 18 year old life.
Speaker 2:You know it was but all of this a ploy that he was using as a pawn, I guess.
Speaker 1:All of it, any any friends that we had in our lives, any associates that we had in our lives. They were there for a reason. It wasn't.
Speaker 3:Was there a story behind it, Like him sitting you down and saying this is what your goal is?
Speaker 1:um in such a sort. When we moved up to colorado, within the first two days of us being there, he had laid it out for us and let us know what we were doing there and why we were there. You know the ones that he could tell. He would tell me and aaron the majority of the stuff, because me and aaron were very loyal, we would not run our mouths where he would tell things to my sister or my two younger brothers. My two younger brothers were just very young and so they would talk out their necks yeah my sister would talk to anybody that would, that would listen.
Speaker 2:So she what was the purpose or what was the goal of that takedown of that group in colorado?
Speaker 1:they were planning to bomb a bridge. That's all I remember is that they were there to bomb a bridge and the dad ended up getting information of where they were going to bomb it, how they were going to bomb it A whole bit.
Speaker 2:Some sort of like domestic terrorist, I guess.
Speaker 1:Something like that. They were part of a militia. That's all I remember. I just remember he was part of a militia and that we were supposed to get real close to his kids and then, all of a sudden, we weren't allowed to talk to his kids anymore and next thing I know we're moving back to Arkansas.
Speaker 2:Wow, how long were you guys in Colorado.
Speaker 1:Probably about nine months so, and from there we moved to Searcy.
Speaker 3:Do you ever know if the guy got arrested?
Speaker 1:I think he did, but, um, I think he got out and then I think he committed something even worse and ended up back in. So his whole family has been in and out of jail, Like and that family was Timothy McVeigh.
Speaker 3:Uh, it sounds a lot like his name, Um, but sorry it was no wadding water when we lived in Colorado.
Speaker 1:We we it was no water in Colorado. When we lived in Colorado, we had an outhouse. We had no running water. We lived in a shell of a home that my dad built. It was supposed to be a hunting lodge and a very large house, but no water, no electricity. We lived there for nine months in freezing weather. We lived in Colorado.
Speaker 2:It was cold 18-year-old girl house with no water and no electricity. Oh, it was so fun In modern time.
Speaker 1:It was so fun. We had another little guy that my dad had brought up there to help. That was one of my brother's friends and absolute creep, like the definition of a creep. His name is David and, like you do, you got to go to the bathroom, right? We didn't have a port-a-potty at this time, so we lived at the top of a mountain. So I told my mom I was like I'm going to go up the mountain and go potty, and this man followed me up the fucking hill and so then I have to come back down and tell dad hey, you know, do something about this, I'm not going to do. And he needed him. He needed him to help him, so he'd throw his kids on the bus.
Speaker 1:He don't give a shit, wow.
Speaker 2:It's horrible. Well, Colorado went back to where.
Speaker 1:We went to Searcy, arkansas, and then from Searcy Arkansas we moved to Tyler, texas, which is where I graduated high school from, and then we moved to Austin, texas, and my parents moved all over from there. But I gave up in Austin and said I'm here.
Speaker 3:I'm not. Did he continue to ride or be a part of that lifestyle, of the biker type?
Speaker 1:No, After the shooting happened my dad really gave up the biker life. He was more about driving big old pickup trucks and big old jacked up Suburbans and stuff like that. He got off the bikes. He did eventually get back into the bikes later in life, but not for like an outlaw thing to get a girl.
Speaker 2:But he always, and I don't know, I wouldn't say to the end, but he always kept a finger on In the pulse of crime. He called me one day and said, hey, there is a store on Harry Hines selling VCRs. And I'm thinking, well, first of all, who the hell's buying VCRs? He said there's a store on Harry Hines owned by a Middle Eastern guy and they're funneling money to a terrorist organization overseas. I'm like, okay, here's another tall tale, bear. A couple of weeks later I run into our JTTF, uh, tfo, um BS, and with him we were on the deer lease together and we're just about to part ways. And I said, hey, bear called me and has another tall tale. I was going to bounce off of you. He called and said that there is a little hole in the wall on Harry Hines selling VCRs funneling money to terrorist organizations. Before I can finish, the JTTF guy says yes, we're watching it. The name of the business is called this, it's located at this address and this is the terrorist organizations that they're funneling money to.
Speaker 2:A couple of months later he called and said you know, the Angels are in Texas. I said I knew they had made it as far as about Amarillo or Abilene, he goes. No, they're building a clubhouse over around Fort Worth or Arlington at blah blah, blah, blah, blah address. Well, I was in the biker scene a little bit so I was somewhat confident with my information. But I start making phone calls and, sure enough, the Angels were building a clubhouse over around Arlington or Fort Worth exactly. It fascinated me and I guess when, that's your entire life, how and I think y'all were living in Austin at the time and I'm like how the hell does he have his finger in a terrorist front selling VCRs and the angels building a clubhouse in Arlington. It fascinated me how, no matter where y'all lived, he had a finger, he had a pulse of.
Speaker 1:People would call him all the time and say, hey, you're not here, but I bet you'd like to know this. Or hey, you're not here, I could use some money, you want to know this and dad would pay him.
Speaker 2:He would pay him, or he would bring him in to do little jobs with them so that they could get paid. So the government's paying him as an informant, and then he's turned around flipping, basically paying informants. Yep, wow, so they left. They left austin. You planted roots. I remember that. How old were you then?
Speaker 1:I was 19.
Speaker 2:And where'd they go from there?
Speaker 1:They moved to Altus, oklahoma Not Altus, that's where my uncle lives. They moved to Phoenix Arizona. I'm sorry To work for we had an attorney that was out of Beverly Hills. She was a very sweet lady. And she hired my dad to come in and build some tiny homes for her to turn into apartments. So how old were you when we crossed paths?
Speaker 2:uh, 20, 27, 26, 27 what was life looking like between 19 and 27, when they left and you planted roots?
Speaker 1:You'll have to keep in mind that I didn't know what to do. I moved out of my family's house because my dad put a gun up against my face and was going to murder me in front of my mom, because he found out I lost my virginity at 20 years old. He had read my email and I got woken up at 3 o'clock in the morning because I had confined in one of my friends that I lost my virginity and he printed it out and came and got me up out of bed at three o'clock in the morning and held me down with the gun and read the email to everybody, even my brother that wasn't even living there. He called my brother or to read it. So I went to work that day.
Speaker 1:I worked at Best Buy. I was manager at Best Buy. I go in the office and I tell my manager that, hey, today's not going to be a good day. I was like I have a feeling shit's going to go down. So I called my dad and I told my dad I was not coming home anymore and he lost his shit, like to say the least, because he's always had control Always and he didn't shit, to say the least.
Speaker 2:Because he's always had control.
Speaker 1:Always, and he didn't like it. He did not like it at all that I was pulling what I was about to pull. Well, y'all, keep in mind I did not have a dollar. I've been working since I was 12 years old for my family and I never had a dollar to my fucking name, like ever, like even as a 19 year old person being a manager. I came home and gave my paycheck straight to my parents. I was not allowed to keep a dollar out of it. Not a dollar, okay.
Speaker 1:So when I moved out, I had no money. So it stressed me out so bad that I just went against my parents that I started my period like the very next day because I was so stressed out. I did not even have money to go get feminine hygiene products. Okay, I had to beg this girl I worked with at Best Buy to let me stay with her long enough until I got my shit together, because I had nothing. I didn't even have a car. So she did she let me move in with her. Her name was Lacey Williams, very grateful for her.
Speaker 1:But when I moved out, I had. I felt like I had no choice and I really turned a really ugly side and I didn't mean to looking back at it. I really hate myself for it, but you get in a situation where you just kind of get desperate. So I started stripping, did that for about a week until I said I can't do this.
Speaker 1:So I went to work for a person that owned an escort service, found out that he was beating on his girls, and so I waited until one night when he was drunk and passed out and I stole all of his girls from him. I took all of his deposits, I took all of his phones, and so I waited till one night when he was drunk and passed out and I stole all of his girls from him. I took all of his deposits, I took all of his phones, I took everything and I went home and I started an escort service and I ran it for 10 years, made tons of money, and when my dad broke my nose he threatened to take my child from me. So in 2008, I gave up my business and since then I've owned carpet cleaning businesses, I've owned house cleaning businesses, I've owned a photography business and now I do commercial cleaning and I own several properties, and that's what I do now.
Speaker 2:That's awesome me about, because there's there's this like juxtaposition of your daddy's girl you were poo bear and you can see in when you talk. In some ways you can just tell you and your dad were freaking tight. And then there's this 180 of that where he abused you in every way possible, mentally and physically. How does that look? What does that look like?
Speaker 1:When you grow up, that's all you know. It's just like that Harvard study that they did. Where you're abusers, you start believing them and like loving them like a Stockholm syndrome type thing. I knew my dad could hurt me, but I didn't think that my dad would kill me. You know, I knew that there was a fine line and our dynamic mine and my father's dynamic changed whenever he crossed that line.
Speaker 2:We talked offline and when you're little, you only know what you know.
Speaker 1:You know.
Speaker 2:If you grew up in a super religious home, you assume probably everybody's super religious, or if you grew up in a single parent home. For all you know, probably most kids are living in a single parent home.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:When did you realize, wow, this is, other kids don't live like this. They don't.
Speaker 1:Probably when I was about 15 or 16, I questioned it and I got my ass handed to me.
Speaker 2:So that whole time you're like this is the normal life, Don't ask questions.
Speaker 1:Don't ask questions. Dad beat that out of you.
Speaker 3:Well, cause you had no friends either. Yeah, you're not.
Speaker 1:And the people that do come in, the people that he will allow you to be friends with. He would assault them also. You know my boyfriend the one boyfriend I had. I dated the same man from the time I was 15 until I was 20. That man got his ass beat so many times. I feel so bad for him.
Speaker 2:Thankfully, we're still very good friends.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you couldn't beat that man up well, he must love you oh he, we are still very good friends.
Speaker 2:It takes multiple ass whippings to keep coming back and he did I'm telling you some of them were strong.
Speaker 1:That is loyalty, yeah, but you just don't know better. When you're growing up, you think that that's normal. You think that everybody's parents are slightly abusive and you just shh about it when you go to school. We thought that it wasn't until we got older that we realized that this shit is not normal at all. I'd go over to my friend's house when he finally would let me go over to my friend's house and I'd see how loving and how kind and how actually loving they are compared to my family that just used you as a shield, basically.
Speaker 2:So when you whipped the pimp's ass and stole his business, you handled business. That's something I've always respected about you. Definitely did If something needs to happen. You're a survivor, I think, is a better way to say it. Did he ever come looking for you? He knew better.
Speaker 1:He called me. He threatened me a couple of times. I told him I'd go eat his ass and he wanted nothing to do with that anymore. I was very mean in my 20s, and when I mean I'd burn your house down, I would have burnt your house down.
Speaker 2:That's a great story.
Speaker 1:You whipped a pimp's ass and stole his business. That's a great story, kind of. I mean, you would have done the same thing. Say, okay, so you're out on a job, right, and you come in and there's blood on the wall the moment you walk in and you can't see whose fucking blood it is. But you do see the guys asleep and all the girls are crying. You would have done the same thing, you would have done the same thing and the and the ticket and the money, and I took a Beamer too.
Speaker 3:Well, talk about the trial and talk about how you and Clint y'all were introduced and he helped out with the case later on with the homicide case with your grandmother, but then your viewpoints on law enforcement and how the interaction because you hadn't had a good viewpoint of cops, I mean there were some that were okay.
Speaker 1:There were some that you could tell they wanted to do something. They wanted to try to help, but they had to turn the blind eye. You know, it's just what it is. Me and Clint met during the trial First time. I actually got to speak to him. Same thing with Gary Sweet and obviously both of them were so kind.
Speaker 1:But I wanted nothing to do with those trials. I wanted nothing to do with it. They could have gotten those people without me. In my opinion, in my very humble opinion, I think they could have done it without me.
Speaker 1:The only reason why I went to it is because I got told that if I didn't go, my baby brothers were going to have to identify my grandmother via a picture. I didn't want them to have to see what I saw. So when we went to trial, I was the one that identified them because I didn't want that image to stick with my brothers. So, as far as other police officers that I ran into and other law enforcement during the trial, it was really hard because I got promised things that were not given to me. I got promised we will not put you at the same hotel with your mom and your dad, because we know that you're scared of your dad, so we're going to put you in another hotel. In fact, that's the only reason why you're coming. They put me at the same fucking hotel, on the same floor with my dad. Okay, so much so that my dad knew that I was there before I even got there.
Speaker 1:I had time to put my kid down before knock knock knock so by the time the second trial come around, I absolutely no, no, no, no, no. I got promised by the DA. I promise she will put you up in another hotel. It'll be all the way across the street. Guess what didn't happen Same hotel same bullshit.
Speaker 1:Same having to drive to the trial with my dad because controlling, you know, I left in the middle of the trial. I had enough, I could not be there anymore. The, the, just the overall effect that it was doing on me and having to relive that and having to resee images and having to face somebody that I never got to see these people without their mask on, and now I got to see them without their mask on. Let me tell you that's not fun to dream about every night.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, any?
Speaker 2:any closure to the trial, or did it just reopen a bunch of old wounds?
Speaker 1:I mean I'm glad that they got time, I glad that that did happen. But I have night terrors and been suffering from night terror since I was a little girl, like since the shooting happened, and it it's scary, it's extremely scary to, even as an adult, how I'm 45 years old almost and I still wake up screaming and scare the shit out of my kids.
Speaker 2:I can't even imagine.
Speaker 1:You know it's it. It's very interesting life to try to live and it does get quite depressing because you can't. Nobody understands you. They don't understand that. Yeah, you're, you look happy, you look like you're functioning just great. But when you're alone and you're left to those thoughts, you wonder what the fuck you did to make God hate you so much to where you had to be put through that bullshit. You know, I honestly could not tell you what love is. I could not tell you until recently. I did not know love when I was a kid, growing up, I knew a shitload of abuse. I knew a lot of physical, mental, psychological abuse, you know. However, they could use me they did. However, they could use the family they did so. And they could use the family they did so. And that's sick. You shouldn't use fucking kids like that. If you know that you have somebody that is a sociopath, maybe you'd want to get their fucking kids away from them.
Speaker 3:I'm just saying you know Right, no case is that big.
Speaker 1:No, it's no, nothing is worth that much trauma Like, and that's that's nothing that say therapy you have been to therapy that that shit doesn't help. It's still not going to erase the flashbacks I get when I close my eyes. You know that that doesn't help. So I think another thing that would have been great if they would have done is offer therapy after it. You know y'all want us to come and deal with this shit. Great, send us the therapy after. Because I had to pay for my own therapy and, trust me, that was $10,000 out of my fucking pocket, out of my own pocket and you're referring to what sec we did protection.
Speaker 1:No, I'm talking about since the trial, since the trial.
Speaker 2:I, no, I'm talking about since the trial, oh, since the trial, oh, the DA's office I threw myself into therapy after the trial because of what I had to see.
Speaker 1:I forgot those images of my grandmother laying dead on the floor. Yeah, they showed me a picture of my grandmother that looked like she had had her ass beat that I had not seen in so many years, and I try to forget that image every time I wake up, and that's just something you don't see. So explain that to me, let me know how that is okay.
Speaker 2:Failures at the DA's office is like a whole six-hour podcast. We discuss the failures at the DA's office.
Speaker 3:I believe, it Frequently, especially Dallas County, da Caruso is not exactly.
Speaker 1:It's not any better. No.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there are traits that your lifestyle built you and I'll say again, a survivor and me and you met, I think, just before the trial and have kept in touch, I guess 15 years probably. Yeah, I guess 15 years almost 20 and what? Um, yeah, we met when we were three. That's right, I know.
Speaker 2:So it has been 20 years I won't tell if you don't um, but that is the thing that one of the things that I noticed at the trial was you. You were the mother figure. You seem to be the one that could quasi heardhurt the kitty cats, and I don't mean to disrespect your siblings.
Speaker 1:No, I was left in charge because I was the one that would do what needed to be done.
Speaker 1:I'm one of five, okay. So you have my oldest sister, who is a bookworm head in the book almost all the time. You have Aaron, who was all about extracurricular activities. Let's get the fuck out of the house, I don't want to be around here. You have me, who watched my two baby brothers, who spoke their own language, and I was literally the only one that could understand them until they were probably about six, and then they broke that shit up and then you could actually understand what the hell they were trying to say to one another. But it's, I was definitely the mom. There was a reason why I was put.
Speaker 2:Well, I could tell during the trial you were kind of the matriarch, you were the grounded one and for the last, however many years we've known each other 15 or 17 years I've watched the resiliency and I don't mean to minimize what you've been through at all, but it fascinates me to watch because I know your background and I learned more about it today. But I've known, I think most of all of this, a chunk of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But to watch you today owning multiple businesses, owning multiple properties, the photography that you do and the eye for art that you have dabbling in the real estate market, is not for the faint of heart. And you've built a life and I'm sure you have dark days and I can't imagine the night terrors that you have, but what do you think gave you the foundation to come out on the other side?
Speaker 1:Swinging, yeah, my kid.
Speaker 2:My very first one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, who woke me up, Really solidified it. But those two babies have saved my life.
Speaker 3:How old are they now?
Speaker 1:Just turned 19, and my little gray baby just turned 11. So they are my reason Got you Um, um.
Speaker 2:What would you say? You've had good days with law enforcement and bad days with law enforcement. What would you say? We have a lot of listeners that aren't law enforcement. But what would you say to law enforcement listening that are a new officer or a new detective or a new crime victim advocate? What would you say to them?
Speaker 1:Have some patience. Have some patience. And, ashley, look at your person that you're servicing in their eyes, because the eyes tell a lot. They tell a lot. And if you just look off from your pen and paper for five seconds and look at that baby and say, are you okay, I guarantee you that child's going to break down on you. If anybody would have just asked me, are you okay Growing up, I would have told them no, I'm not. Nobody asked me. My uncle even told me at my grandma's funeral. He's like I had no idea what you guys were going through. I had no idea because you guys were so well kept, y'all were so quiet and so professional about it. But y'all don't understand.
Speaker 1:If we weren't of a certain demeanor, we had hell to pay when we got home, you know, and that could be a broken jaw, that could be a broken leg, that could be a broken arm. That it didn't matter Like the amount of fractures that I've seen on my family members from my father, is absolutely no joke.
Speaker 2:So it was all a screenplay, you will put on a screenplay.
Speaker 1:It was all a screenplay.
Speaker 2:You'll all put on this. We should all win an Academy Award.
Speaker 1:Every single one of us we are due. Give us one.
Speaker 2:Something that struck me when you two were talking offline. I was a pit bull as a detective and I was proud of that. But I would get laser focused and I think Tyler's one that mentioned it on catching the bad guy and solving the crime and I I don't think that I often slowed down to consider and I probably I noticed I watched you and your siblings a lot during the trial, but I was always laser focused on catching the bad guy, solving the crime. Now I'm on to the next one what residual?
Speaker 2:Back up a little bit what's the residual, what's the bigger picture? And that's when you maybe early on there could have been better intervention if somebody had have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we warned the schools that we were being abused but since we were in the witness protection program, they wouldn't do anything to my dad. My dad kicked my baby brother through a wall in Spokane, washington and he went to. He went to school with a mouse over his eye and his face was bleeding and they just let him stay in school that day. I mean, there was CBS in our house by the time we got home that evening, but they were gone within 20, 30 minutes. Once, with sex showed up and said get the hell out of here. They said out of here. They said okay, no problem, sign this art, we're out. Wow, that's the fucked up part about this yeah, so it's a wit sock problem also.
Speaker 1:I mean on top of that, because they don't know all the way around if you're gonna pick up somebody that has children, please don't pick them up and take the children with them, knowing that they might die from the hands of this fucking idiot that y'all have, that y'all want to protect, because he's an asset to y'all. He's not an asset to us. He's trying to kill us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know that's crazy. Well, we can look into helping, I guess, victims of whipsack and and families that are in that in that program, cause it's, it's a problem, I mean.
Speaker 1:I saw therapy or something to where they can get away from their abuser long enough to be able to say something. We were never allowed to get away from my dad long enough to be able to say anything, and that's the thing. Maybe y'all should pull these kids aside and say, hey, is there anything underlying going on? Is there something up? I see it. I watch your body language. You're standing here like this and you're scared to move. Something's wrong with that picture.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You stood on your own and developed your life on your own. How long ago did your dad pass?
Speaker 1:2018.
Speaker 2:You moved on and built your life, built success. Did you guys maintain any contact?
Speaker 1:I saw my dad about a year before he passed away. He he cheated on my mom and he had moved another woman into my mom's house while my mom was there and my mom got up in the middle of night while they were asleep and she moved to right outside of Little Rock, and so I wasn't the biggest fan of my father after that because, keep in mind, he just broke my nose and now all this shit's going on. So I ended up going over there because I heard that he was on his last time. So I went over there and he didn't say he was sorry. All he said was that he loved me, and by me I meant him. He said I love me and he kissed his own hand.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:That was the last thing I told my father was I love you, I'm glad that you love yourself. I went out, got in my car, sat there for about 20 minutes, said a little prayer, told God all I could do, and I left and I hadn't seen him since then. He asked me. The very last thing he asked, before I walked out of his house, was get Aaron over here, because Aaron was the only one of my siblings that refused to see dad and he still didn't see him. He refused, which is weird, because Aaron's the most like my father.
Speaker 3:That's pretty crazy.
Speaker 2:What did we not hit? Anything you want to talk about, we didn't.
Speaker 1:I think you guys got a pretty good basis. I think we're good.
Speaker 2:What would you say to a young lady that may be facing challenges? Because you're extremely humble? You're very humble in your strength and resiliency and you have no idea how strong you are and for somebody that has been to any one incident in your life, there's a lot of people that wouldn't have made it through it, and yours was like a baseball people that wouldn't have made it through it and yours was like a baseball game that wouldn't end.
Speaker 1:Innings just kept coming. God, I'm just going to say God.
Speaker 2:You mentioned a while ago. You said you wanted to know what you did. That made God mad at you, but fate's helped you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you just end up having a conversation with the man and he'll tell you.
Speaker 2:I mean it's helped you.
Speaker 1:Yeah you. You just end up having a conversation with the man and he'll tell you. I mean it. It's very humbling whenever you actually open up and you try to understand why. But you said it, it made me stronger and I've helped so many fucking people I can imagine I've helped so many people, and not just in business, but in crisis mode and drug addiction and just being alone.
Speaker 1:I've I've opened my house to so many people. My friends call me the orphan lady, which is funny that you said the orphan, because my house is known for that. You don't have a place to live. You need a place to lay down for a second, you need to regroup, you need some money, you need a friend, you need to cry, you need to shout, you need to regroup you need some money, you need a friend, you need to cry, you need to shout Right here.
Speaker 1:My door's open, my light's on. There's food in the kitchen.
Speaker 2:You know that's just the way I roll. All that you've been through and seeing some calm waters.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And watching your kids grow and your businesses do great things. Do you find some peace in the darkness sometimes?
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely Now you do.
Speaker 1:Now you're able to see it and to say, okay, my family was fucked, but at least I did a really good job. At least I got up and I went to work and I showed them that, hey, hard work pays off. You don't have to do illegal shit to make it. You don't have to. You can be a good person and God will wink at you. And that's the biggest takeaway of it is watching out for the God winks.
Speaker 1:Ever since I've turned my life around and started believing in God again and believe it or not, it had to do with my brother, aaron, which is the closest thing to my dad. But he turned me around in about 2009 and he said yo, what happened to that little girl that used to go to church all the time? What happened to that little girl that used to say God, I love you so much? What happened to that little girl? And it's because I got it beat out of me. You know being beat and praying and nothing happened to you. Just lose it and then you gain it back. And that's a very important conversation and a very important relationship to have. Period, there's not another one. He's the only one you've got. You know where they say you're the only one you have. No, that's not right. God's the only one you've got. So when I didn't have my parents, I had god.
Speaker 2:That's what helped yeah, that's what you'd share with the young lady going through something.
Speaker 1:Absolutely you know, if you need somebody go to church. Even'm not. I am super scared of big groups, so I will not go to a big church. He's dragged me a couple of times, but I still try to stay out of them. Just have a conversation with God. You'd be amazed how much that will open. You know, if you're scared, give it to him, lay it down at his feet. I've done it. Guess what it worked for me. Well, the survivor that.
Speaker 2:I've done it Guess what it worked for me. Well, the survivor that I've watched. You've got the ingredients, you've got the recipe figured out and I'm glad to hear you keep sharing it with other people and helping them figure out a way to survive, because the easy thing to do is punch out.
Speaker 1:I'll quit.
Speaker 2:I'll give up. I'll turn to some addiction.
Speaker 1:But that's just it. That's the easy way. Who the hell wants to take the easy way.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm talking about. Who?
Speaker 1:the hell wants to take the easy way. If it ain't Rocky, I ain't going. I love it.
Speaker 3:Well, I can't thank you enough for coming down here and driving all the way down from where you're living at to come on the podcast and share this incredible story. I definitely got something out of it. I'm sure the listener viewer will as well.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me, I appreciate it yeah.
Speaker 2:Anything else? I don't think so I love you.
Speaker 1:I love you too. Thanks for making me sweat.
Speaker 2:Hey, you wanted a challenge. Ah, there it is Rocky road all the way, easy way or the hard way, hey, I got you there, I got you.
Speaker 3:There you go. Well, hey, you guys, take care, stay safe. God bless you and, as always, may God bless Texas. We're out, thank you. The name Zafira means ''Pure'' Religion, ''muslim'', religion, ''muslim''. Thank you, bye.
