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Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
2024: Ranked #1 Law Podcast
Host: Tyler Owen and Clint McNear discussing topics, issues, and stories within the law enforcement community. TMPA is the voice of Texas Law Enforcement, focused on protecting those who serve. Since 1950, we have been defending the rights and interests of Texas Peace Officers by providing the best legal assistance in the country, effective lobbying at state and local levels, affordable training, and exemplary member support. As the largest law enforcement association in Texas, TMPA is proud to represent 33,000 local, county and state law enforcement officers.
Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
#122- "Special Recipe" with Regional Attorney Marsha Todd
In this inspiring episode of the Blue Grit Podcast, Houston Area Regional Attorney Marsha Todd shares how her remarkable journey from the Houston Police Department to the courtroom shaped her approach to defending Texas law enforcement officers.
Marsha reflects on her years serving in Houston Police Narcotics — where she learned firsthand the intensity, integrity, and teamwork it takes to serve on the front lines. Later, she brought that same dedication to the Houston Police Department’s Legal Division, sharpening her expertise in policy, procedure, and officer representation. Those experiences, both on the streets and behind the desk, have made her an outstanding choice for TMPA members across Texas who depend on her skill, grit, and deep understanding of what officers truly face.
Listeners will also hear Marsha reveal her personal “recipe for success” in representing officers — a blend of empathy, preparation, and unwavering loyalty that defines her legal philosophy.
Joining her in this episode is TMPA Field Representative Robby Campbell, who covers the Southeast Texas region. Robby brings a field perspective to the discussion, sharing how TMPA’s legal and field services work seamlessly together to ensure that every member receives the best representation and support possible.
💙 Tune in for a powerful mix of insight, humor, and heart — as two seasoned professionals remind us that behind every badge defended, there’s a story of service, sacrifice, and unshakable dedication.
email us at- bluegrit@tmpa.org
It was a different police department. Um, it was exciting. I learned a lot. Um, and then I took a quick opportunity to get out of patrol. Um, so I did about a year and a half in patrol and then went to the narcotics division. And I spent the bulk of my career in the narcotics division. Um I didn't know anything about it. They just they were hiring. They needed emails in narcotics at the time, and I applied and was fortunate.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome back, viewers, watchers, listeners. I'm your host, Tyler Owen. I hope you all are doing great, staying cool. Today's the first day of fall, and looking forward to some cooler temperatures. A couple of days would be a little bit cooler. Uh I think so. I think so. Not like cold, cold fried, but no cooler. No, no. For those who don't know or have tuned in or seen this gentleman to my right before is field representative Roberto Campbell from the Golden Triangle. Robbie Campbell, former retired Boston, or excuse me, Beaumont Police Department, now one of our field reps. I said Boston in there. I don't know why. I didn't have anything to drink last night, I promise. But he's joining us today to uh talk with one of our attorneys there in the Houston area that's uh honestly making a name for herself, rightfully so, for all the all the great work she's done. Our attorney, regional attorney, Marcia Todd.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you so much for having me excited.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I am too. We're gonna dive off in some pretty cool things. But before we do, there's some uh important dates I wanted to bring up. April 26th, next year is gonna be the T-POM. They announced that last week during a Zoom meeting, and uh super excited about having that to honor our fallen. It's gonna be on Sunday this year. If that changes, we'll be sure to update you. Also, our conference for the 2026 years, July 24th through the 26th, gonna be held back in Dallas at the Hyatt Regency at reunion at the reunion ball. So that was a it was a decent one. Big hotel, big hotel. Very much bigger than uh the one in Houston.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, when you stay at a hotel like that, there's no reason for like to get an overflow hotel because when you got a place that has like a thousand rooms or 1,500 rooms, you don't have to worry about sorting out sourcing out different places for people to stay. And it keeps everybody together in the same area.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Well, and I I think last year the Houston Hotel, uh, just the some of the complaints, not not a whole lot of complaints, but just two people that complain was the the bar downstairs uh wasn't very large enough, I think, to accommodate all of our guests and board members and staff. And so they struggled to keep up. I'll just leave it at that.
SPEAKER_01:If if that's all they have to complain about is a bar, yeah, then that's there's no complaints there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So uh if you've never been to the conference, be sure to uh keep keep up and and uh be looking for the dates and and the registration. We're gonna push that out probably right after the first year, and very much looking forward to seeing you, your family. It's turned into more of a family atmosphere, and I think that's uh a positive vibe because you can bring your family, you can drop them off. Robbie's gonna babysit them when you attend our hospitality night. And so he's certified, and we uh we we like to reward him a little bit after conference with a couple days off because he's got to keep up with all your kiddos. But no, all jokes aside, it's a very family atmosphere, and uh we we we like for that to happen. But nonetheless, Marsha, cannot thank you enough for traveling down here last night, staying the night here in Austin. Did anything happen last night while you were in the big city?
SPEAKER_02:No, super quiet.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's that's a good thing. That's a good thing. But thank you for traveling down here and uh happy to happy to happy to have you on.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. I'm excited to be here. I really do appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so hey, let's just dive off into it. Where uh tell us more about you, where you grew up and how you kind of inter intergrained yourself into the law enforcement uh world.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. So I grew up in the Dallas area in Garland. Um when I was about 10, my parents moved to Mineral Wells, bought a farm, and grew up on a farm from there, went to high school there, um, went to college in Denton. And when I graduated college, I had a criminal justice degree um and wanted to go to the Dallas Police Department. But at the time they had a hiring freeze that they said would probably be three years.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:I knew one Houston police officer and I said, This is my chance. Yeah. And I called that officer and said, Can you get me on? And in 1993, I started with the Houston Police Department.
SPEAKER_00:Any family in law enforcement for you to pursue that?
SPEAKER_02:Or no, in fact, actually, I'll tell you a short reason why. So um one friend of mine told me when I was in college, you're too small, you can't be a police officer. And I said, Watch this.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, so it started in 1993, it was Houston PD, um, and I stayed there for almost 30 years.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. That's crazy. Well, and and let's let's let's let's revisit this because I I I'm I'm happy to see this. As a father to a daughter, when you started in law enforcement, the ratio from women in law enforcement was significantly less. And so I think it's important to hit on that real quick about the importance of having women in law enforcement, not just because of the female search aspect for those out there that are listening, they're cops, but because you're it's needed. And I think it's needed for us to be shoulder to shoulder with more women in the for in the workforce of police work because you guys are such an asset.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Um, and you know, policing when I came on in the early 90s was different.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, your command staff was more supportive, the DA's office was more supportive. Um, it's not the same as much anymore. Um, so it's more of a challenge. So yeah, absolutely. I think getting more women in law enforcement um makes a huge difference.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So go ahead. One thing, one thing you did mention you talked about that you started in 1993. That was a time when it was hard to get a police job. It was really hard to get a police job. Right. Like you had to know somebody to get in. And that's when you had a lot of people go into the police academies on their own and sign up to be a reserve and work for free just to get their foot in the door. So it was it's really hard to get in now a pulse, a heartbeat, and uh a good credit score sometimes will get you a cop job. Yeah, for sure. No, back then in the 90s, and I guess the shift star started happening um probably 2005, six in that area. I was I would imagine when it's it it's get get easier and easier to get a cop job, but in '93 it was it was difficult.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it's it's actually interesting that you chose Houston over Dallas because I think if I recall correctly, at that point in time, Houston paid significantly less than Dallas. Is that not accurate?
SPEAKER_02:I believe so. My thing was Dallas was going to have a three-year hiring freeze. And I didn't wait three years. Right. And I knew one officer and took that chance and called and and within, I think three or four months was in their academy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And it's such an iconic place to work. I mean, I've never I haven't worked at a big city like that, but I'm sure it's very, very, very rewarding on graduation day for you to wear that Houston you know police officer uniform and that badge be pin and such there's so much history involved there, and it's so big, and it's so cool to, I think, to be a part of that. So congratulations to you for doing it. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. Back then we were in those old blues.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the old baby blue, including the uh the old patrol cars, too.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:If I'm not mistaken. Anyway, so you start off in 93 and and uh tell us about uh how how you how your patrol experience went, your FTO phase and all that.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. So I started off in 93. Um, of course, my patrol, my field trainers back then were much older, you know, it was a different police department. Um, it was exciting. I learned a lot. Um and then I took a quick opportunity to get out of patrol. Um, so I did about a year and a half in patrol and then went to the narcotics division. And I spent the bulk of my career in the narcotics division. Um, I didn't know anything about it. They just they were hiring, they needed females in narcotics at the time, and I applied and was fortunate enough to get accepted.
SPEAKER_00:Now, for those out there that are in narcotics, you know, uh law enforcement has transitioned from a lot of CI work to more of a observing report, right? And so when you were doing it, I would suspect it was a lot of CI, a lot of undercover a lot of UC work, a lot of CIs back then.
SPEAKER_02:Of course, yeah, it's changed now. Yeah. Um, but no, it was really exciting back then.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Y'all probably messed it up for all of us. You're your generation of cops.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there were no body cameras back then.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, no.
SPEAKER_02:And you know, I'll tell you what, uh, for one thing that's important to me is it was a different level of respect back then.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. The crooks had a different level of respect for the police, and the police had a different level of well, and I mean you go into narcotics at that certain that that such an early age, that's set that says a lot about you and your but you were also a little bit older when you went in. You were you were well educated, you had a bachelor's degree, and we're gonna dive off that here in a little bit. But I think that's what probably assisted in the promotion or the transfer over to narcotics. Right. Yeah. So you're rocking along narcotics, and then uh what comes up next?
SPEAKER_02:So at some point, about I'm gonna say about 10 years in, the city of Houston had a great bargaining opportunity. Um, our department entered into a a new contract, and part of that contract was an education incentive. And for me, there was so much value there. Yeah. Um, I'd always wanted to go to law school when I was younger, um, finishing up college, but you kind of get that bug where you're like, I want to just get out of school and go to work. And so I did that. Um, and so when the contract passed and I was able to take advantage of that, I decided I'm not getting a master's, I'm going to law school.
SPEAKER_00:And what year was this?
SPEAKER_02:Uh 2000, early 2000s.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. So you're in narcotics attending there wasn't probably a whole lot of online, I wouldn't think.
SPEAKER_02:There was no online back then. So I went to South Texas College of Law. It's a private school downtown. Um, we had some options. Uh U of H was one option, but because I worked full-time, I would have had to do a part-time program. And their part-time program at U of H was Monday through Thursday, like six to nine for four years. Yeah. So I had a family and I had, you know, a full-time job and it makes it really difficult. Yeah. So South Texas College of Law is a private school and had a little more workable part-time program. And so that's what I did. The the downside of that is the city of Houston would have paid all of U of H's tuition, but only about half of what South Texas paid. So the city paid half, I paid half, and walked away with a lot of great.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. That's incredible.
SPEAKER_01:Most of the cops I know that have that become attorneys, they use the program like that because there's a lot of cities that have that built into contracts and just outside of contracts, just offered. Um, but they go to that that school downtown Houston, South Texas College of Law, and it's a good program. Yeah. And they get out and they work for the PD or the city for a little while, and then they go out on the road and and uh making millions, making more than they would be as a police officer chasing bad guys. But probably not as fun, but I guess it depends on what you want to go out and specialize in.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So I always thought, you know, when I went to law school, I thought at 20 years, I'm leaving the department. I'm done. I'm gonna go out and practice law and same thing, make a millions. But when I finally finished, I was like, why would I go do that? Why would I go out and struggle to work and start all over? I can do both at the same time. Yeah. And that's what I did.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. And let's let's just dive off into what happened. So you graduated law school with the anticipation of you going to kind of I go, what private practice? Yep. And then you kind of ran into a barrier that I think probably assisted with you now with your career.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. So I graduated in December of 05, took the spring 06 bar. When I passed, a member of the chief's office was actually in Austin when I got sworn in and said, We know who you are and you're gonna come work for us. And within months, I was transferred to the chief's office, still as a police officer, but um as one of his um attorneys in the legal uh services division.
SPEAKER_00:And as far Houston's a it's the largest city in Texas. What would you be talking about your daily functions for doing that job for the chief?
SPEAKER_02:So we ran that office back then, like a law office. I mean, that's how it functioned. So we would get calls that would come in that you would have to deal with, but we represented the chief, right? So one of the things we would do is let's say the chief terminated a police officer. Our job as his attorney was to keep that officer terminated. So we would go to arbitration. Um, I would do IED review. So IED would send their cases over and then we would go through them, comb through them for legal sufficiency, or do you need to go back and ask more questions? Or you shouldn't have asked this question, or things of that nature.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think that's imperative of the success we're seeing now with what you're doing with us. But uh, and you worked there for how long?
SPEAKER_02:I was there in the chief's office for about three years. So you have to have another police officer who is an attorney fill that spot. And it took me that long to find someone to recruit to come in and swap out with me.
SPEAKER_00:And what was your rank at that point in time?
SPEAKER_02:So I was an officer when I entered legal. I promoted to sergeant while I was in legal. Um, and then I transferred out, went back to the narcotics division, and then I transferred to, I mean, I promoted to lieutenant.
SPEAKER_00:And then went back in legal?
SPEAKER_02:No, I I left as a lieutenant from the narcotics division.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, wow. Okay. Well, at some point in this, you uh you became, I guess, intertwined also with TMPA and and and you're a you're a practicing attorney or licensed attorney, I should say. You chose to go ahead and leave and branch out on your own. And how how did that flourish into where you're at now with TMPA?
SPEAKER_02:So I did. It was just, you know, I've kind of had enough, you know, police work had changed somewhat and uh decided now it's time to go out and practice on my own. Um and I have this unique skill set, right? I mean, all the attorneys with TMPA are incredible powerhouse attorneys. You guys have a great group of attorneys, but they all offer something different. I look back at what I have and and the skill set I have is a little different than some of the others, right? I've been where these police officers are. I've had ID complaints, I've answered them, I've been in critical incidents, I've had all the same experiences for the most part that these guys have. And I really wanted to put that to use. You know, I was done with law enforcement as far as wearing the badge and all of that, but I still want to support those police officers that I've been with for 30 years.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Um, so I reached out to TMPA and said, here I am, use me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Let's go back to the Houston aspect when you were on legal and I and I and and you'll understand why. You represented the chief or you represented the city when you worked for legal?
SPEAKER_02:So I represented the Houston Police Department. Okay. Right. And so City Legal has their own legal, um, and I represented the police department.
SPEAKER_00:Did the chief has a ha have his own attorney at that point in time? If he let's just say hypothetically he was to get sued, if the chief was to get involved in a some type of critical incident, which we don't see typical, you know, big city chiefs do. Did the chief have his own attorney?
SPEAKER_02:Uh the way I understand it, the city attorney himself would have represented the chief in that aspect.
SPEAKER_00:And here's here's why I'm asking that question is that your loyalties to the city at that point, correct? Correct. And I think it's important to point out our TNPA regional attorneys are contract attorneys. And why is that important? Why do you and explain to the listener, viewer out there that are TNPA members why it's important of different legal plans on why ours is successful and why it's been the recipe of success since we began our legal program back in the mid-80s.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. So in that scenario where I worked for the police department, my loyalty was to them. That's who I answer to, right? Um now as a TMPA regional attorney, I represent the officer. Period. I sign a contract with the officer saying, I represent you. The only thing TMPA does is pay my bill. So I don't answer to TMPA on how I'm gonna manage a case or what I'm gonna do or if it doesn't work right. It's on me. I'm I'm the attorney, it's my responsibility. Other organizations out there have full-time attorneys. Yeah, right. And so when they get called out, where does their loyalty lie? Hopefully with the officer, but I don't I haven't seen it that way with TMPA. I mean, it's it's really an incredible program.
SPEAKER_00:And what you just mentioned about the the their loyalties to the organization that's paying them. Talk about Houston. Did you ever get confronted or ask about a certain situation that you're you're you're spending too much time on this case, make it go away, or let's transition over something else? Because what my my interpretation of that is is this is that my fear is that other organizations that have that type of legal service is that they're gonna tell them to take take the take the write up or take the suspension and move on. Whereas in your situation, you're representing the officer and TMPH is just footing the bill for it. We have no control over the attorney client member aspect of it. Why is that important?
SPEAKER_02:So I I can give you an example um without names or any of that. While I was on the Houston Police Department in the Legal Services Division, you know, there's relationships within that police department. And I would have a chief or someone else come to me and say, Hey, take a second look at this case, which is a nod to take a second look and make some different decisions. Um, or since I have left, I have heard of times when an officer may be told, Hey, we're gonna work out a deal for you, but in reality, they very well could be in the chief's office working on a deal for another officer and someone takes, you know, a lesser deal to benefit somebody else. That doesn't happen in TMPA's legal plan because you have no input on what I'm doing in the case. I represent that officer and I don't answer to TMPA.
SPEAKER_00:Perfect. Yep. That's uh that's probably the best explanation for this attorney.
SPEAKER_01:To have somebody that's this worked the other side, yeah, like the chief to work for the chief like that, to keep this person terminated, make sure we did everything right determined because we don't want this person coming back, and then to come to work for us and and just the opposite. Now we're here I'm I'm here to tell you as well as well as TO and Marsha understands this that if there's a bad person, if there's a bad police chief or bad officer out there, we don't really want them to keep going. If there's if there's so much if somebody somebody deserves to be terminated, we would like to keep it that way if we see things that way. I yeah, bad bad cops, bad police chiefs, bad administrators, um, that are bad for the group, for the organization, for TNPA members, for the community. Um but but to have to have somebody like her with her qualify qualifications work on this side with us with our legal plan, I think is it's a really good fit. And I've sit back and I've seen some of her work firsthand, and I'm I'm really impressed with what she's able to do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I am too. And I I I think it resonates with the members, the the the badge toting, you know, or excuse me, badge wearing gun toten, boots on the ground members out there that are still, you know, cops, they they resonate with people who have served just like they, like they're they're doing, right? So you've got attorneys out there that do the same thing, and you bring a different skill set. Having 30 years of experience as a boots on the ground cop, specifically working in narcotics, and those out there that are our cops right now, y'all know the narcotic mentality that I'm talking about. Typically they're rough and they're to the point and they're blunt, and that's that that's just the narcotic type people that you want to deal with. And so to have somebody now representing our cops, uh, our members uh on a on a legal standpoint that understands you know the facts out like if you lay out all the facts in the in a in a case, you could find a policy violation in every single call for service, almost every single call that any cop goes to in Texas, right? Absolutely. There's just sometimes policies need to be violated to get the job done. Right. The cool thing is it's having a cop behind the scenes looking at a case like that is that they can give the explanation to the opposite side of, well, yes, this was the violation of the policy, but this is the reason why from a cop's perspective. And I think that's what the difference is on the special recipe that I think TNPA has with the different regional attorneys we have.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So uh Marcia, you've been with TNPA how long?
SPEAKER_02:Um, about a year and a half, I think, something like that.
SPEAKER_00:In your experience, and me and Robbie talk about this all the time, what advice would you tell the member or cops out there, regardless if they're TNPA members or not? What are you seeing from your perspective of what cops should do in the event that they're facing discipline, they're under IA. Uh give us some perspective from that aspect.
SPEAKER_02:And the biggest advice I can give is the moment that you suspect, not that you've been served, not that you've got paperwork, the moment you suspect that there's a problem, that you're about to be investigated or for whatever issue you may have, don't wait. Call TMPA right then. Call in, let a field rep reach out to us so that we can get involved from minute one. Um, I get a lot of calls where uh from a field rep like Robbie or somebody else who gets a call from the member who says, Hey, I'm sitting in the parking lot walking into my IED statement. Can you get me a lawyer? And you're two hours away from me. I have no idea who you are, what the situation is, what your department's like, even what you're are you civil service or you're not? I know nothing. Um, don't wait. Don't wait till you're walking into your meeting. Give me enough opportunity to get in your corner early on.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and there's something I used to say on the phone all the time when I was taking legal, is I would much rather be involved in the first inning than you call me when we're we're we're we're nine down the ninth and you expect me to be the pitch, you know, the pitch hitter. I mean, I mean, or the the saving pitcher. You know, it just doesn't work that way. And I think it's smarter for you to get involved in the first inning. Call us, see how we can handle. And I think we as an organization, we just changed one of our legal plans a couple years ago with the failure to report. Years ago, we wouldn't technically assign an attorney to somebody who witnessed a critical incident. It just wasn't really in our legal plan. It wasn't needed. But sadly, and we're gonna talk about this in a minute, about the differations of how this law, how this profession's changed, is that it wasn't needed. And now with that law that came out a couple years ago with the failure, the duty to report, now we got to check all the balances and make sure all the T's are crossed crossed, the I's are dotted. And that's another good point also with the regional attorneys we have is that, for example, if me and Robbie were getting to a critical incident and Joe Bob is the one that witnessed it, but you've got the other officer that's involved, the actual shooter in the case, and Marcer represents him, a different attorney is gonna represent the other officer that witnessed the case because there's gonna be you technically can't represent both.
SPEAKER_02:Right. And it works well under your plan because we don't work for you, right? We all have our own law practices. Um, and so I have a contract with that one member. And so if you conflict with whatever the shooter or someone else on scene, that's fine. You can all have TMPA attorneys. There's no conflict because of how it's set up.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, I can't I yeah, I'd be with that. You know, I can't I can't urge these members our members enough to if you get in IA or you think you're going that way, to go ahead and call us, man. I've we take legal calls and all the reps have have had these same type of calls that when they get called and the guy on the other end's in a bind, you can clearly tell it by the listening to his voice or her voice, they're about to go into an IA meeting, or hey, I got in a bind and I've already given a statement to IA. Yeah. I don't like to hear that, and I'm at that point I'm not going to shut you down and say, well, there's nothing we could do for you when I know we can still. But maybe limited. Now I'm not the person to represent we have attorneys like her that do that, but it always helps us to get way in front of it. Don't talk to internal affairs until you talk with your attorney. Um, don't don't wait until you're walking into a meeting and call us thinking that we have a magic wand to save the day, or they can go in there and invoke their right to TMPA and be like, you know what, no, TMPA's coming, they're gonna bring hell with them. Right. I mean that we we have recently done that, but yeah, that's not gonna work for every situation. But these our members need to know to call in, man. If you if you feel like something's coming down on you, call in. We can make notes, we could put it, we could we could call an attorney, you know, we could go ahead and start. And if nothing happens to it, if they put in minimal work on it, then they're not, you know, they they they're still gonna get paid to do the work. Yeah. But it's just to have somebody in your corner from day one, there's no telling how these things are gonna work. If you have this thing where the chief calls you in and chews your ass about something, don't worry about it, it ain't gonna go any further than here. That's bullshit.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's that's it is. I mean, rarely does that ever happen. And you can't risk it.
SPEAKER_02:I look at it like risk versus reward, right? There's no risk. Just call. You're already paying the dues. Let me let me see if there's something we can do. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, but don't wait till the ninth inning.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, for sure. So another thing that that that you helped out with the city of Houston when you were in legal was I guess you probably oversaw a lot of the critical incidents. Right? No?
SPEAKER_02:No, it's not really not in the role that I was in. Okay. Um, so I did at one point, I was on the union board. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so HPOU's union board, I think, for a another another asterisk that we should think three or four years.
SPEAKER_02:So I did, I wasn't on right. They have their own attorneys that answer to the union. It's different than TMPA. Um, but I was involved kind of in what was happening as as a member of the board. And so I got to see a lot of it from that aspect. But I didn't go out and make the critical incidents. That's not that wasn't my role.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. In your perspective, I was involved in a few. Yeah. Oh, well, yeah, I'm I'm I am definitely sure. Yeah. From your perspective, uh, how has critical incidences changed, evolved over the last 30 years since you started law enforcement to where you see now? I think we're getting to the point. We just talked about this off camera, is that historically back when we first started, I started in 04 or 05, 03 with Dallas County. You started in 93, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:We we had the the the they forced us to do the walkthroughs right right then. And some people still do, and I'm not, I'm not throwing shade on that. However, now I think we're getting into the practice in our profession to give in that three-day window to allow everything to kind of process. What are you seeing on your aspect in specifically down in whether region you you specifically work at?
SPEAKER_02:So I'm seeing actually the DA's office is really cooperative right now. Um we we have the choice. We can say no. Um and and luckily, all the ones I've been involved in so far, I haven't had the need to say no. Um, I do have plenty of time to meet with the officer beforehand. We kind of do our own walkthrough. Um, but one other aspect that I've noticed that's a big change is that walkthrough the majority of the time is not recorded. And there are no notes taken during that walkthrough by the investigators, by IED, by the DA's office, other than noting who's standing there, they're not taking the officer's word of what they're saying through that walkthrough because it's such a critical incident and so much adrenaline going through. I want to make sure that's not the statement that's used.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. For sure. Would you be okay with like giving them minimum? I've never worked at a critical incident with you, an officer of our shooting or anything like that with you. I've called you out to a couple, but I've never been out there with, um, which is one of the things I like to do in my region. If I'm close enough and I can respond within an hour, I'll I'll usually try to go out there at two o'clock in the morning or two o'clock in the evening. But the the Texas Rangers and a lot of them are members of ours, a whole lot of them are member of members of ours, they they kind of know, and I think it's a question they ask the the officer who was involved, who are you with? I mean, what legal plans are there? Are you with are with are you with TMPA? Are you with the other guys? Are you with anyone at all? And I think they know how to frame their questions and wait until the attorney shows up. They know how they know to wait. Um Is it are you okay with them? But what they usually want is what where were you standing at when you pulled the trigger, about how many rounds were fired, and what direction were you shooting in? Minimal information.
SPEAKER_02:So I can tell you that every Texas Ranger I've worked with so far while I've been with TMPA has been exceptional. Um I've had no complaints. And the questions I've seen so far, I'm okay with, right? Obviously, it depends on on the incident. And what I've seen from the Rangers I've worked with, the ones I have seen, they're not going to ask the questions they know not to ask before I get there. Um the ones I've seen them so far have asked, are you okay? Um, just give us a general idea of where you were standing so that we know where to start looking while we wait on your attorney, while we wait on the investigators, wait on the DA's office. Um I've had them ask on some occasions, you know, it's a long like I had to go to Leon County for that one. That was a two-hour drive.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:They asked, can we go ahead and chart the weapons while you're not here? And that's fine, because I'm gonna see pictures, I'm gonna get serial numbers, there's no questions asked, but they cannot do the walkthrough until I get there. That's kind of my my thing. I'm not gonna do a walkthrough without me present.
SPEAKER_00:Understandable too. What was that? So it's understandable.
SPEAKER_01:Well, absolutely it is. I mean, they can get in a bond if they do something. It's that selective memory thing, but you don't remember everything. We were just if you're just involved in a critical incident, like a shooting, you're not gonna remember everything that just happened. There's three to five days that you're gonna need to decompress. And for for God's sakes, review your video before you get a statement, of course. Yeah, your attorney will tell you that. And don't, don't the people that are watching, and I hope I hope there's millions, millions watching this show today.
SPEAKER_02:Me too.
SPEAKER_01:Right? Is to uh when you when you call us, if you're involved in a shooting and you call us, it's not we're not saying it's okay. Your takeaway from this show is not that it's okay to go ahead and talk to the Rangers and or your the investigating authority, whoever's investigating the shooting. Wait till you call call us. Like right after it happens, call us or have a battle buddy call us and wait till your attorney reaches out to you because when we when you call us, we call the attorney, the attorney calls you back within minutes, and then you could ask questions and they'll they'll give you guidance from that point. It marshes right after that, we're out of it. We're we're backed out of it.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and I think it's important too to kind of point this out is that a lot of departments have decent working relationships with the current district attorney that they work in. But the reality is this is that a lot of towns and cities and counties around the high populated areas within Texas, you're starting to kind of see change on the political dynamic. And I have said this for years, and I'm gonna say it till I die. I personally do not think district attorneys, sheriffs, constables, and or judges should be on any political party uh platform. I don't feel like any any the law is black and white, it's not red and blue, right? And so when you start seeing some of these rogue district attorneys as we see in Travis County, is that think about it. Ten years ago, before Travis County got this rogue district attorney, that case may take a while to go to court. And so the officer in his mindset is, oh, this is this is Joe Bob with a DA's office. Well, he may not be in office when this goes to court. Right. So you have to have that mindset and head, you have to think ahead of the game. I also want to talk, you know, talk about something else. You started 30 years ago, a long time ago, right? I didn't mean to say it like that. 93. I'm old, but yeah, no. Um, but uh the aspect and the mentality of officers having legal representation for minor situations, that mindset back then was if you have an attorney here, you probably got some weird looks that my God, you're guilty. But the reality also now is that we as a profession, and including administrations, we were talking about this off camera, are encouraging, you know, the members or officers to give us a call, give TMPA a call to kind of review your statement. Are you seeing that same trend and down in your region?
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. I'm seeing the same thing. Are you seeing it in yours?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, you get guy, we get guys that call in uh ahead of time, really, like what we want to get the attorney involved first or quickly, is if they get in a buying at the scene, and this just freshly something just happened. We're not talking about critical incidents, we're talking about a policy violation, right? A policy violation that's probably gonna piss the the sheet, the sheriff or chief off. And their lieutenant sergeant says, Hey, go ahead and call TMPA, you're probably gonna need them for this. Yeah. And when they call, there's I don't have an IA yet, but this what this this is this just happened, it might turn into something. Yeah. That's what we want. So we be we can be prepared for it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I I would think that trend of the officer not calling or thinking someone's gonna think I'm guilty if I if I did call, what I have seen is the older officers that were on, you know, 20, 30 years ago and still have that mindset. The younger officers seem to call right away.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, immediately. Well, there has been a big situation, a legal win, I guess, per se, that uh uh a case that you handled that honestly we're fighting the same fight to an extent to a neighboring Houston area city to the w west of you or west of Houston. And it was in Pinehurst, and there were some some significant leader problems or significant leadership issues that we got some successful results out of, and results of the police chief being dismissed that served as a city manager. Let's talk about that because I think it's important. We get called all the time, the field refs get called. I've got a bad chief. Okay, well why? Well, he's enforcing the policies. Okay, well, that's not exactly a bad chief, right? So let's let's let's break down the kind of the fundamentals of why we thought Pine I identified why Pine Hearst was having some leadership problems and then talk about the successes that we had there.
SPEAKER_02:Sure. I can tell you how I got involved and Robbie has a little more background probably to get there. I got involved because Robbie called an officer had been terminated. Um so I just started digging in, doing what attorneys do, doing my research. I pulled this and he said, My chief has done, you know, all these other things that Robbie can probably talk about to get us there. But as I started doing my research into who this chief was, what type of department is he running, what are his management skills, um, his leadership tactics. It's just a failure. I just ticked off everyone was fail, fail, fail, fail, fail. Um, I went and pulled his, I did an open records request for his application for Pinehurst Police Chief. And you know, there's a box on there that says, you know, he wants to be the police chief. This is a a pretty important role, and it says, Can I check your can I call or contact your previous employer? And this man checked no. Right? So who so red flag number one, who checks no, you can't call my previous employer. So then I started digging deeper. Um, fortunately in that termination, we were able to um reach a pretty good settlement for this young officer. Um and and ended that with that. But I didn't stop there. I was like, let's go farther and see what this chief has done.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and I think it's important to point that out. I don't think I well, I'll say this. I wouldn't think a regular attorney probably would have that mindset is that we've talked about this. You in your your thinking process was is that okay, we we were successful at the termination being overturned and got a settlement, but this is still going on. We still got members there that are suffering through this leadership process. So you took it upon yourself to dive a little deeper and talk about the success you had after that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I look at it like this the office of the chief of police comes with an incredible amount of responsibility, right? It's not just to those officers that are under him, but to the citizens. And everything I learned about how this police chief was doing, handling his business, he was failing at every aspect. Um so I went and met with I gathered all my information, everything I had, went and met with the city attorney um and explained to him, look, this is this is what I have. This is what he's done, not only to your police department, to your city. And then you have to know too, the city doubled down at some point and thought this is such a great guy that they also gave him the interim city administrator position. So he was holding both roles. Um so one of the things I did was ask in an open record request for his timesheets, I want to see what you're doing every day and how are you justifying two salaries and in my opinion, failing at both. Um, and he refused to give those over. And so we just we kind of went from there. And so I went and sat down with the city attorney, talked about look, this is what I've seen. Um, to replace officers that he had run off or fired or resigned in lieu of dealing with this man anymore. Um, he had some questionable hires that I also had some issue with. Um, gave all this to the city attorney, and to his credit, he saw how important this was um and took it to city council and then we went from there.
SPEAKER_00:Which was pretty recent, was it not?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, this was like uh a couple of weeks ago. It all started probably about well, the us requesting that the city and the and the council remove him was three weeks ago.
SPEAKER_02:I think three weeks.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:This this guy and Pinehurst was a is a fairly small department.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we're talking about Yeah, so a population of about two thousand, right? And you have a police chief, you have a lieutenant, and you have four patrolmen. And that's it. Yeah. And they had a hard time keeping those ranks filled.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that's what the collective bargaining agent or agreement called for, but this police chief took upon himself to create some additional positions outside of that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he created a captain. I've and a captain and a car created a sort. Everybody had brass on their shoulders, but nobody was actually towing the pole. I don't understand that process. And there's no mechanism in the in the in the collective bargaining agreement to to pay these or to even state rank in there. It's lieutenant and four officers and a police chief.
SPEAKER_00:That's it. We're all members of the local, or we're all members of the T. I think at the at the top, we're not going to get into the membership aspect of the chief, but was everybody below the chief members of TMPA?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and they well the last two, yeah, the last the last two entire police forces there, uh excluding the chief, were all TMPA members.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and I think it's important to highlight this. We're talking about six officers at max when they were fully staffed, correct? Yeah, including the chief. Okay. So let's just say hypothetically five of them of their membership dues,$32 a month, could not have touched really the magnitude of number number of hours, man hours that you put in there, or female hours, sorry, to put that you put in this case. And I think it's important to highlight that at TMPA, we're not concentrated on how many members you have at your association or your department. We continue to do what's right. And the you verify that and your your dedication to the situation is was confirmation of what our mission is about.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and and not to speak, you know, of any other attorney, I have a different aspect, right? I've been where these officers have. Though department the department I worked in had five thousand officers, I had squads, I had units that were small, and my allegiance is to that police officer, right? And I wanted to make sure moving forward that any officer that took a position in this police department had the right chief and had leadership that respected what they did.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Well, I just wanted to highlight that because I think it's important that if you had added up all their dearly dues uh in one year, it probably wouldn't have equaled what we are paying in legal fees and your your your aspect too, your mileage having to go back up there and deal with this fight. So just wanted to point that out.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, if you if you if you look at it, if you're just a you know an accountant looking at that case alone, yeah, we're way in the red on that. Way in the red.
SPEAKER_00:No, that's okay. Exactly. And that's my point is that we're gonna continue to do what's right, no matter really how what situation. The the juice is not always worth the squeeze, but it is for us in those aspects.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, this poor officer who worked like twenty-something nights in a row for this guy because he had ran everybody else off, this police chief did, and this was the only the only officer he had left, besides somebody that was in code enforcement or something that didn't like to work for him anyway. Um, or didn't want to work for him anyway. And he comes in after the chief's elicited complaint, he comes in to to you know to work another night in of this twenty in a row to a write-up. And he's like, uh, what is this? You know, blindsided by this thing. And the chief's like, Oh, you need to sign this, to sign this, it was a write-up for I can't remember what it was, but it was something small. But the chief felt like he needed to pin him down on something. Why would you do that? First of all, I bet if this is all you have, if this is your only officer covering calls at night, and this is all you have, who was just involved in a in a in a probably about two weeks, three weeks before that, maybe a month, was involved in a in a uh a tally pursuit. I mean a a a very bad crash that he was chasing the guy for the county. I mean, we're not blaming that the the offender's actions on him, but this happened and the chief wouldn't relieve him from duty. Yeah. Matter of fact, I called the chief. We kind of had it out on the phone. I was in the back of the PD about this thing. Um, you need to get somebody up here to replace him. Well, his response was, does he really need to go home? Because if he wants to go home, he'll call me. Looks like he went home instead.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he went home. He went home for good. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And Robbie called me that night of that accident and said, Hey, this is this is something going on that we need to keep an eye on. So kudos to Robbie for for stepping up and recognizing. And I I told him that night, I'm coming. I'll come over for the accident. It's okay.
SPEAKER_00:And to you, because uh, you know, it it's it's that mindset of the continuation of trying to serve, right? On on top of your 30 years of service with Houston as a cop, trying to serve the citizens of Houston, your continuation to serving those who serve Texas now with serving all of our TMPA members. You saw something that you needed to kind of dive off into. You didn't want anybody else to suffer. And, you know, hats off to you for continuing that. So thank you. Yeah, for sure. Have we hit everything that you think we we we should cover?
SPEAKER_02:I can tell you one thing I would point out. So we had a similar type case out in Madisonville, Texas, about a year ago. Okay. Um and we were able to get a settlement for that officer as well. Some some poor leadership going on. Um, but I can tell you the difference in that case and Pinehurst was the officer was diligent enough to keep good records, take good notes. So I'd point that. Not only do you call right away, write things down, right? You can you can get a journal and put attorney client confidentiality or privilege on it so that it's not discoverable. It's just a communication between you and I, but but keep those good notes. It makes a huge difference when I come in in the first inning that I already have the playbook.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's smart. Good advice. How come you didn't say that, Robbie? The hell's wrong with you? I'm not the attorney. Oh, that's true. It talks my attorney. Well, again, I can't thank you enough for coming on. We have some rapid-fire questions if you're ready. If you didn't study for them, I'm not sure if you've ever watched any of our Blue Grip podcasts, but you damn sure will after this if you're if you're uh if you're ready for them.
SPEAKER_01:All right, I'll just Robbie if I'm uh No, no, you these are you know you know the answers already. They're already pre-wired into you. But I think she's gonna agree with our one of them. Okay. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that's pressure.
SPEAKER_00:All right. What is your favorite cop movie or line from a cop movie?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I mean, I like end of watch.
SPEAKER_00:Best movie I've got just so many lines.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I yeah, the joking around the patrol car, that's life.
SPEAKER_00:The banter back and forth between the cops and this and the squad car is probably depicted best in third one or in end of watch, I think. That's the that's the best one. What's your favorite cop card?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, old blue caprice from HPE. Sorry.
SPEAKER_01:You know what? Ephraim. No, they had them forever. They did. They got them forever.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, can you see little bitty me sitting in a big old Caprice? You came and see me over the stick.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I was still going to the calls.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there's one there's one in y'all's uh uh museum. Yeah, in the museum.
SPEAKER_02:It is, yeah. We had an officer who was uh who passed away in the line of duty, um, who took it upon himself prior to that to restore a bunch of old cars and and they've continued that kind of in his honor.
SPEAKER_01:I really thought you were gonna say a crown vic.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah, no.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that was too squit to say though.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Okay. Thank you for tuning in. I'm proud and side. Yeah. What's your uh favorite drink of choice when you're trying to relax and have a good time out?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, goodness. I'm not a big drinker. I used to be when I was a police officer, but now I'm a lawyer. I don't do that.
SPEAKER_00:So right. And you gotta respond to our members to it by the way.
SPEAKER_02:So so it's water for me. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I can't thank you enough for coming on. Your continuation to serving those who serve Texas and uh in your regional you know, attorney aspects and duties. And so you're making a name for yourself, and we appreciate everything you've done for our members thus far and many more years of Marsha Todd there on the in the in the golden triangle area in the Houston area. So thank you.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Rob, you got anything else? No, I'm glad we're able to come on and talk a little bit and kind of introduce Marcia to the to the world. Um she's doing good good work, and I know when I take legal calls, uh, there's there's more and more members requesting her because they hear the good work she's done. I think this this platform here is going to push it out for the people who are watching this and listening to it. That, you know, we have a great attorney who's walking a mile in their boots, who's worked both sides of this, who's actually, you know, stood with the chief on things and we'll get a chief ran off. And I think that that's exactly what we're looking for. And I have no problems uh calling her at 2 o'clock in the morning or 2 o'clock in the evening afternoon to go take care of an issue.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and I think it's it's important to highlight this too, is that eye to eye, and along with Robbie and all the staff here, to include our executive staff, is that we don't want to get the reputation of running off leadership within law enforcement. I will say this is that we try to do a good job at highlighting good law enforcement leadership when it's there, right? So when bad leadership law enforcement, it affects everybody. It affects our members, it affects the department, it affects the community, and so I feel like it's our obligation and our continuation of our mission of fulfilling our motto, which is the voice of Texas law enforcement, in order to engage that and to correct it. And so I just wanted to point that out that sometimes people mislead some of the some of the quotes that are put out on social media for uh the lack of leadership in law enforcement, but it's important, and I think it's important to maintain good leadership because sadly you have the honeymoon phase of different administrations that come in when that fades off is when the bad leadership typically happens. So kudos to those chiefs out there at administrations that are encouraging their officers and encouraging their members to give us a call during a critical incident or or situations that they feel they want their own subordinates to get the good legal representation to walk them through this process. That's good leadership. Bad leadership is just like what you mentioned earlier of giving a guy a ride up that served you 20 days on nights uh and continue that abusive time power. So just want to end with that. And uh can't I can't thank you, Jeffrey. It's good seeing you too. I can see this in this conference. I know, I know. I like it. It's always a good time with old with old RC in the house.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, yeah. You know, it's a good thing I didn't get into 10 o'clock last night because I probably wouldn't wake up at 10 o'clock today. Well, if you would have made a Wimberley and made a wimp you're made at Wimberley, uh, we could have gone by a Hay City store like last night. Yeah, that's a great place. It took me a while to get here. I had to stop off in Huntsville, and it brought me back through Madisonville to get over here. So by the time I showed up here, I was driven six hours ago. I was already in bed too, by the way. Had a long day. Yeah, we know old folks get, but go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:Hey, you guys take care, stay safe. Stay tuned for the uh we well, I could like I told you earlier in the early of the podcast, April 26th for T-Pom, Texas Peace House Memorial, July 24th, 26th of 2026. It's a TNPA conference there at all uh in Dallas. And we're gonna push all this information out on our socials and our website. Stay tuned for that. You guys take care, stay safe. God bless you, and as always, may God bless Texas. We're out of the world.
