#128- "Murphy's Law" with Lee Hon and Robby Campbell

A rural county’s safety net is only as strong as the deputies willing to hold the line.

In Episode 128, we sit down with TMPA Regional Attorney and former Polk County District Attorney Lee Hon alongside TMPA Field Representative Robby Campbell to break down the growing controversy surrounding Polk County leadership and its impact on law enforcement.

At the center of the discussion is Polk County Judge Sydney Murphy and the debate over Texas Senate Bill 22, a bill intended to help rural agencies raise salaries and remain competitive. We examine how Judge Murphy reduced the county-funded pay raise specifically for law enforcement because of SB22 funding, effectively offsetting the purpose of the state assistance.

The episode follows the money from courthouse construction costs and elected officials’ pay increases to a grant-funded Public Defender’s Office that could exceed one million dollars annually once state funding sunsets. Meanwhile, the sheriff’s office and jail face retention challenges, staffing shortages, and declining morale.

We also touch on the Brady List as another topic impacting officers and accountability.

Most importantly, we discuss solutions: transparent multi-year compensation plans, retention incentives, and leadership that honors the true intent of SB22.

Public safety is a promise. Episode 128 asks whether that promise is being protected.

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening And East Texas Check-In
• 2:10 Meet Attorney Lee Hahn
• 4:45 DA–Law Enforcement Relations Post-2020
• 6:20 Advice To Officers: Call Early
• 9:30 Why Local Legal Networks Matter
• 12:05 The Brady List Problem
• 14:52 Polk County Pay, Benefits, And Talent Drain
• 18:20 Why Competitive Wages And Benefits Matter
• 22:10 SB22’s Intent Vs Local Implementation
• 25:00 Raises For Officials And Vehicle Allowances
• 28:20 Follow The Money And Demand Transparency
• 31:10 Budget Growth Without Public Safety Gains
• 34:00 Jail Staffing Crisis And Outsourcing Inmates
• 36:30 Lessons From Defund And Regional Pay Gaps
• 39:20 Public Defender Office Debate And Priorities
• 42:00 Voting Dates, Calls To Get Informed
• 44:00 Rapid-Fire: Movies, Cars, And Old-Fashioneds
• 45:30 Events, Trainings, And Closing Message

Transcript

Opening And East Texas Check-In

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Wages with the advent of Senate Bill 22 when it passed brought some much needed salary funding uh into our sheriff's department to increase the wages of our deputy sheriffs. Unfortunately, upon receipt of that funding by our county, our county judge Murphy used that as an opportunity to free up other money in the county budget to give larger raises to uh non-law enforcement, non-jail staff.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Welcome back, viewers, watchers, listeners. I'm your host, Tomar Owen. Today we are in Polk County, as promised with our field representative Roberto Campbell, that serves the uh the little southeast southeast portion with the golden triangle area. It's been on TNP.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

How long have you been with TNP now? Man, I just started my fourth year, so don't sell me short. It's better than just, it's more than just the golden triangle, Southeast Texas. This area I'm up here in my area, right? I'm in the heart of East Texas. You are in the heart of East Texas. Let's go all the way up to like the south end of Tyler.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

I was working in and serving uh when I was a field rep. All the way up to Tyler, over to Marshall area, I guess, and down. Uh so you got the piney curtain, is what I'd like to report.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

That is the piney curtain. It is the piney curtain. But yeah, how how the hell have you been? I've been good, man. Busy. I got a lot of stuff going on, moving and shaking. Contract season's coming up. I have eight to do down in southeast Texas, uh, where collective barney is pretty prominent. Um, so it's gonna be busy, but I like doing that stuff. So yeah, looking forward to it. Man, it's kind of a catch-all job.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Being a field rep, you don't know really what the what the whole day is gonna be. You can wake up one day and have a whole complete mission devoted to you know, subject A, and then you get a phone call and you're redirected to do something completely different in a completely opposite part uh of your region. It's a it's a it's a pretty cool job, and you do it quite well. Thank you. I appreciate that. It is pretty spontaneous sometimes. Well, and and hats off, when I probably when this drop, when this podcast drops, uh yours truly, Robbie Campbell, is gonna be a grandpa. We won't dive off into what the kid's name is gonna be, but man, congratulations. New chapter in life for you, uh, you and Carol.

Meet Attorney Lee Hahn

SPEAKER_00 1:56

And so uh we at TMPA are super excited for you guys. Yeah, we appreciate that. Eddie Day now, Cooper is his name, Cooper. There you go. Cooper Campbell. He's gonna show up pretty soon. First grandkid, he's a grandson, so uh that's that's pretty exciting for us. We're just kind of waiting now, is what we're doing, just kind of waiting.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

So yeah. Well, speaking of East Texas, uh, you know that I've I've I've lived and worked in East Texas for quite some time, since 2004. Mine was more mid-East Texas, but in in doing so, I was able to meet and uh and work alongside with some absolutely phenomenal attorneys, and one of which, uh, right before my departure was uh an attorney, Lee Hahn. We had communicated a little bit, but didn't we do do a whole lot of work together? And then with my departure over to Central Texas and to uh what Lee we like to refer to as the Texas Liberal central uh side of Texas, um, when I moved in the Austin area, Lee came on as a regional attorney here in the East Texas region. And so Lee Hahn's gonna join us today. We're gonna talk about Lee, his experience, and then talk a little Polk County politics, which I think is the uh the brunt of why we're here. And uh, I'm super excited to be here. Lee, welcome on the Blue Grip Podcast. Great to be here, Eric. And uh appreciate you guys having me on this morning. So it's it's really interesting. People I ask me all the time, attorney friends of mine that say, man, what makes a good recipe attorney for a TNP attorney? And I think that you fit that mold quite well. We've got some guys that have been cops, we've got some guys that had been prosecutors, we've got some guys, and and and you know, you being a a former, I don't want to say ex or or old district attorney, but a former district attorney in Polk County, you understand the ins and outs and the dynamics and challenges that law enforcement face and serving in that role, and so you certainly fit that recipe.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Absolutely. I was with the district attorney's office here in Polk County for a total of 27 years. I started as an assistant prosecutor, and then in January of 2007, I took office as the elected district attorney uh here in Polk County and served in that capacity for four terms or 16 years, and then retired in December of uh 2022 and decided I wasn't ready to just stay home or play golf and open my own office. And I've been doing uh general civil practice and criminal defense work, and uh my association with TMPA is also a significant.

DA–Law Enforcement Relations Post-2020

SPEAKER_02 4:07

What's really interesting is you served in a time frame that I think that we collectively, you look at Travis County, Dallas County, these other counties across Texas, and you know, when me and Robbie started law enforcement, we alongside the district attorney's office, we're on the same team. And now you served in that DA spot really at a time where that kind of somewhat evolved into different teams in different parts of Texas. Listen, Texas is a big state, right? But I think here collectively in Polk County, it's still the same. Uh, and along with all of East Texas, of course, it takes 30 years for Texas, East Texas to kind of evolve. But what did what did you see as the Polk County DA, and I say colleagues abroad, colleagues as far as other district attorneys across Texas, where did you see that starting to kind of change of the mindset of we're working against law enforcement?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

I don't know that that there was one uh point in time that you can really pinpoint as the change. I I guess if I I had to say it was probably post-George Floyd, yeah, that that situation. And certainly in a lot of the larger metro areas, you begin to observe uh more scrutiny of law enforcement practices, use of force situations, and a more adversarial nature, for lack of a better word, with larger district attorney's offices that open human rights or civil rights divisions that that were constantly second-guessing. We're gonna dive into that too. We're gonna dive on that here a little bit. I think it's important. So in East Texas, though, I I like to think that there's still a a very large uh degree of support for law enforcement in our rural counties. And I think there is for the most part a spirit of uh cooperation between DAs and and law enforcement. Obviously, sometimes you have disagreements or you know, things that aren't always on the same page, but for the most part, they work work closely together still.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

What advice to the members out there that are listening that maybe maybe in your region, maybe in maybe in East Texas, uh, what advice would you tell them as a regional attorney for TMPA? What's the number one thing you see that our members can kind of do better, uh for lack of better terms?

Advice To Officers: Call Early

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Well, I'll put in a plug for TMPA. I think first and foremost, for people that are not TMPA members, it's a great investment uh to become a member because the benefits are exceptional. And uh it's good to have, especially the coverage you get through TMPA, is great if you need it. But as far as general uh advice to law enforcement officers throughout East Texas, uh, I think it's important that you uh be familiar with who your elected officials are in the county and most especially the people in your district attorney's office, they are there to help. Uh, it was always um important to me as a district attorney to have a good working relationship with our Sheriff's Department and our municipal law enforcement agencies and let them know that we were helped there to help them do their job correctly. And uh when they're doing a good job on the front end and investigating cases, making good decisions, uh collecting evidence and so forth, that makes your prosecutor's job a whole lot easier, you know, once a case gets into court. So so being um, I guess close to your DA's office and communicating back and forth uh and being comfortable in that relationship is uh probably the best advice I can give them.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

One of the things me and Robbie, Robbie takes a call for those that don't know or understand kind of how TMPA operates is that each field rep is assigned on a legal day. And so Robbie's day may be Tuesday to Thursday, and and it's pretty cool because it, in my opinion, I think it gives all of our field representatives a very big uh understanding of really how how different the regions of Texas are, but it also keeps them up to speed of kind of what the current events are looking like across Texas. So, with that being said, let's just say Robbie's on on legal on Wednesday and you call in and you have an IA or a critical incident that night, Robbie's gonna be the one that takes your call. Even though he's in Southeast Texas, you may be calling from Lubbock, and so he dispatches or signs an attorney for that region. One of the most frustrating things when I was taking legal calls, or when I do assist taking legal calls from time to time, is that members will call in and it's like, dude, we're in the ninth inning and you're just now calling us to try to get us involved. And I'm sure from an attorney standpoint, that can be frustrating because they expect you to come in and save the day. Uh, what advice would you give members out there about being involved with an internal affairs festigation? You've served as a district attorney as the essentially the head at the head of that office. What would you tell the members about not uh not being hesitant about giving TMPA call to get involved in the first inning versus getting involved in a ninth?

Why Local Legal Networks Matter

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Oh, I'm you're hitting the nail on the head. It's so much better to have your attorney on board early in the process. Uh and I guess when in doubt, you should probably make the inquiry of uh TMPA to see if it's uh something that that you can get representation for, if it's a covered type of circumstance. But uh yeah, I think the earlier in the process that the attorney can get involved, uh, the more quickly they can become aware of the potential legal pitfalls or exposure that might exist in the case, whether it's an employment matter or a use of force uh type situation. Uh the attorney is there to guide and hold the hand of the member throughout that legal process, whether it's an IE situation or potentially a criminal investigation. So uh having been a prosecutor, there there is a certain amount of benefit to having that experience, particularly on the criminal side, because you can um ascertain, I guess, what the exposure is, let the member know um how to handle their cooperation in the investigation with whatever investigating authorities there are, and potentially be there to help them if the circumstances warrant that in person.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Yeah, it's just one of those things where we get calls in all the field reps, they experience the same thing. You get calls and you have members that call and say, hey, I've already talked to IA and I've given them a statement. And I'm like, man, if you once you find out, if you're made aware from your department that you're being investigated, go ahead and call us and let us get in front of it. We'll assign an attorney for you, and they could help you craft your statement, get things in order so you don't pretty much put yourself in a bind by writing something down that you didn't have the opportunity to review video or something like that about. Uh, one thing about Lee, he's one of those guys, one of those attorneys that we have, we're very fortunate to have him that when you call him, he's going to answer the phone, you know that. Yeah. And if it's two o'clock in the morning or two o'clock in the afternoon, uh one Friday evening, uh, the officer while I was shooting down in Newton County, uh, he was about to go to dinner, and I called him and I said, Hey, we just had this go down to Newton County. Can you meet me over there? And he says, Yeah, I was about to go to dinner, but I'll change directions and go. I said, Well, look, we're in the same boat. I'm just coming from a different direction. But the drive time is going to be about the same for both of us. And he met me up there. But uh, and it's not just one. If we use these attorneys enough, we become friends with them and call them not just when something's happening like this or a critical instant or to sign a case, but just to get to know our attorneys is it's it's uh it's really good for our organization and for our lawyers to get a good relationship with them. And I remember because it helps, it helps our members out. Yeah, we for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:59

You know, what's interesting is that we we sitting here at this table all live in completely different. I mean, y'all are in East Texas, yes, but even even the the environment that you live in is vastly different than where Lee lives at. And this is two hours apart from each other. I'm in Hayes County in central Texas, and what's really interesting is that having those relationships and having the understanding of the culture and the dynamics of each community is so vastly different, and us having to be able to pick up the phone and call attorneys in those central locations of wherever the members at and saying, hey, we got the situation going. You've got personal relationships and business and professional relationships within Polk County, Harden County, and all the surrounding counties around here. Greg Cagle, who who made the introduction for you to be in TFPA, has the in has the relationships there in Galveston County, Harris County, Amanda Bowler, and so it's it's a network of really high, high-speed, low drag attorneys that we are very fortunate to have here at TMPA. And so Lee Han being one of them. Uh, and so it's really an honor to free to be here.

The Brady List Problem

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Yeah, we have yeah, we have members that call in and request you. And that's a good thing. Yeah, so you assign the attorney enough, or the community around here knows him enough, and really not even around here. We're talking about an hour or two hours away. Hey, is Lee available? And I'll yeah, I'll I'll call and check and see if he can take this for you.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Well, one thing this week, our legislative team uh had met with the Lieutenant Governor's office. And I think that the next legislative, every single year, for those that don't know, TMPA sets forth and says, okay, next legislative agenda, these are the things that we as TMPA are going to focus on and try to uh fix and try to work with state legislators on. One of those that we've identified and been trying to work on for several years, us and other state law uh associations, is the Brady list. Are you seeing any improvement uh in you being a former prosecutor on really some of the prosecutors across Texas, the weaponization of the Brady and the no appellant process? Can you speak on kind of what direction you see the Brady list going or how you interpreted it, how you enforced it uh whenever you were a prosecutor?

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Well, to answer that question, it's kind of sporadic or ad hoc in terms of how I see that Brady List process being used in in our area. I think some DA's offices are a little more aggressive in listing officers than others. It's it's still absolutely a concern. Uh, and the biggest concern I have um as a TMPA attorney is how to get people off the Brady list once uh once they get on it, because right now there's no effective process to remedy that. Correct. Uh when I was a prosecutor, I tried to be very cautious and judicious about when to put um someone on a list or to send out a notification, understanding at the same time as a prosecutor, you've got ethical obligations to turn over exculpatory or mitigating evidence to the defense. So there's a fine line there that you have to walk, but at the same time, you have to be mindful that you're potentially ruining an officer's career. Right. Uh so you have to be, you know, very careful about that. But yeah, in this area in East Texas, I see some DAs that are very cautious about how they handle their Brady list and you can work with them. Others tend to err on the side of when in doubt. Let's let's put them put them on the list. And then how do you unring that bell once it's already rung?

Polk County Pay, Benefits, And Talent Drain

SPEAKER_02 14:17

So well, just to coming down the pipe, we may be reaching out to you with your uh you know, prosecutor experience and and working as a DAE, uh, you know, having that insight is just so critical. Again, another um another dimension that I think of having somebody like with your qualifications added to our team as a whole, that probably when you got into this boat, you probably didn't think I'd be helping out with legislation being changed, but there you have it. And uh man, we probably would reach out to the ledge team and kind of get your insight on what you think about it. Love to be involved. Yeah, for sure. So, like we said, we're we're right here in Polk County, uh, and and there's some different dynamics, just for those that that are aware or don't know. TMPA typically and historically never really gives out endorsements to local elections. However, uh when elections are in the and during the election season, we we we do, and when we get phone calls, we got phone calls from several members uh in support of or uh opposing this current situation of the current uh Polk County judge, the judge race. And that's what we're here to talk about today and kind of what what's going on, one of which or there's two major things when I was called and looking looking into this situation with uh the county judge. One, the misuse of Senate Bill 22 money. And then number two is the robust uh what is it, the ethics, the whatever office she made for defense. And I think you're gonna talk about some of those uh along with some other things that we've identified of kind of why this is important and why it's not supporting law enforcement. You where where do you want to start? There's a lot to kind of inhale here.

Why Competitive Wages And Benefits Matter

SPEAKER_01 15:45

I think I would like to start more from a historical perspective and relating back to my experience as district attorney, because uh I started in the DA's office in 1996 working under the then then elected district attorney that hired me. And that was and really for about probably 14, 15 years after, it was a great time to be a prosecutor in Polk County because the quality of law enforcement that we had with our sheriff's department and our municipal law enforcement agencies was really good. And we worked some major cases, capital murder cases, organized crime cases that were well investigated by extremely professional and experienced officers, and that made our job so much easier in the district attorney's office to know you had that degree of expertise and talent throughout the county, uh, and especially with the Sheriff's Department at the time, uh, to put together good cases that we we could prosecute and be successful on. Um it started to become a little bit political with the um election of our current uh county judge, Judge Murphy, um, in 2015, I believe was when she took office. And there seemed to be a subtle shift, in my opinion, in the priorities of our county administration, where um emphasis on on our sheriff's department and taking care of of the officers and maintaining good officers in that agency uh began to become less important. It seemed in 2018, I believe it was, there was a huge change. Um and I think part of it was financially driven where the county's uh retirement insurance plan was changed. Our sheriff's department has never been well paid compared to other counties. But historically, Polk County offered good retirement benefits uh through the um tech the TCDRS. TCDRS and also uh the county had historically provided lifetime uh health insurance benefits for the employees through at the time it was through Blue Clock Blue Cross Blue Shield, and uh and that was guaranteed. And uh I think because of some of the uh expense factors and in paying, you know, for retirees insurance in 2018 they made a big change. Uh they changed the coverage that was available for retirees and forced them to start deciding whether they either wanted to pay more themselves uh for better coverage or go into an HMO type thing. And uh so they they created an incentive where they grandfathered current employees um that were uh, I guess, close to retirement and gave them like a year or so to retire to claim that health insurance coverage that they'd historically be been given, or if they weren't within X number of years of retirement, they you know weren't allowed to continue to have that benefit. So what we had in 2018 was a situation where a lot of very experienced deputy detectives with our sheriff's department that were close enough to retirement to take advantage of that left. And all of a sudden, you know, there is this beginning of a huge talent drain uh for that reason. Um at the same time, um over the and over the next several years, there seemed to be a real de-emphasis, I guess, on maintaining competitive wages for our sheriff's deputies as well. Uh the municipalities seemed to continue to do, you know, pretty well in regard to compensating their officers, but the sheriff's department began to lag behind. So you had low salaries, you no longer had the uh insurance, the attractive insurance, health insurance benefits for retirees, and those combined uh just exacerbated the problem. And um I think there was going forward and up to even the presence present, there was a uh you know, a situation where we just didn't make an effort to um to keep up with other surrounding agencies, other surrounding counties uh who consistently and methodically increased their their wages and their benefits for law enforcement personnel and jailers for that matter. Well, let's talk about that real quick.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

You were a department head for the district attorney's office. You you essentially hired and fired for the people that you wanted to work with in your office. In your opinion, in your professional experience, how how would you explain to, let's just be honest, the voters of even Polk County or even other counties uh that are listening to this podcast, how would you explain the importance of having uh competitive wages in the fair market aspect of having a new hire, right? What kind of quality employee are you gonna have compared to other places that that pay significantly more? What type of employee would you get when that type of job market?

SPEAKER_01 20:51

So if you've got a competitive salary, uh you're gonna attract more uh applications, correct, uh, which gives you the opportunity then to be more selective in who you hire and you can identify the better applicants or the uh more qualified applicants, and and and you start on the front end with a better employee that that you can train and get experience and that will thrive in that environment. I had the same problem in the district attorney's office, and and part of this, in fairness, is due to our proximity to larger counties and jurisdictions, but it was the same thing with assistant prosecutors for me. If you were not able to pay them competitively, it was so easy for them to go to Houston, uh Harris County, or Montgomery County and find much better paying jobs. It's the same thing with the deputy sheriffs, although they can find, remarkably, they can find much more competitive salaries even within Polk County, just by moving out of our sheriff's department and going to work for one of our municipal uh law enforcement agencies, or we have the Alabama Cashata Indian tribe that has a very um well funded and robust police department, too. And so that's an option for local. Officer is. Yeah, for sure.

SB22’s Intent Vs Local Implementation

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Let's go back and talk about the insurance. And and and it it historically, me and Robbie will tell you is that when you look at it in any agency that pays less but has better benefits, it kind of equals out, which is, I think, goes back to your point about having maintaining that type of importance as far as the retention. Oftentimes people are so focused in on uh the starting benefit wages or or or the start of a new employee, and this is where they're going to come in at. Oftentimes we see it across the state is the retention aspect and then paying attention to the retention and trying to keep these good employees because the reality is it's going to cost you more to train any employee up and lose them to another agency that pays more. So back to the retention aspect, I'm sure that put the morale within the department, knowing that what's the point in me staying here if I'm not going to have benefits that I was promised when I began my career here, what's the point in stance? So talk about the medical insurance aspect and why that was taken out in your professional opinion.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Well, I mean, I think it was a way for the county just to try to save money uh and cut corners financially, uh, which then created a perception among all of the employees, it's not just the sheriff's department employees, but all the county employees, that they were not appreciated and that they were not valued. Uh so historically, when, and you you touched on this point, people were willing to work here for less when they felt like they were being valued and appreciated, and the work environment and the benefits uh kind of offset what they were giving up in wages. Right. But when you take the insurance benefit away for current employees or retirees and force them into other less valuable insurance plans for them themselves and perhaps their families if they're having to pay for that extra coverage, um, it no longer was attractive for them to stay.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

So one of the things that we notice also within you know elected officials is that the savings money, the saving money aspect is what's going to be the excuse that they use for why they cut the insurance. However, my question is that when current campaign and political seasons were done, I want to know what campaign promises were done, that that funding had to be withdrawn from the health insurance in order to fund what you promised to the people on the campaign trail. And I look at here and driving up to your office, I'm noticing that this courthouse, um, it's it's quite honestly it's an eyesore. And I can't remember the last time I was in Livingston, but I think the last time I came to Livingston, the same courthouse was being remodeled then as it is now. And I think that was about two or three years ago. So do you think that had that contributed to the lack of or loss of the health insurance because of campaign promises that weren't kept?

Raises For Officials And Vehicle Allowances

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Well, I mean, it was certainly a drain on the county budget. And so to the extent that there are a finite number of uh tax dollars to spend in any any budget, any unnecessary or unprioritized uh expenditure like that is taking money away from other um other better alternatives, other priorities that the taxpayers and voters may have for law enforcement, emergency services, or things of that nature. That courthouse project that you alluded to, you took the words out of my mouth when you called it an eyesore. It's been going on for over five years now, and it is currently six over six million dollars over budget, and there's no end insight currently.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Yeah, there's no there's no end product or end solution. Yeah. Going going back to the insurance thing, I know that that used to be a deal for counties to offer retiree insurance for life. If you you know get the X amount of years with the county, I get that. But the the cost of health insurance have gone has gone up so much. I mean, it's it's it's an it's a problem. Yeah. Health insurance is a huge problem that needs to be addressed. So most counties are getting away from because it costs the county so much to offer that, but they're gradually doing it. Once you get rid of that, you're not going to get it back because the price is just so high. Yeah. Um, one of the hardest things to do from a police aspect in corrections is to hire a brand new person off the street, put them to the academy, hoping, hoping that they'll make it through the academy, pass the state certification test, and then make it through the FDO program. Yeah, and then continue to give you their years of service that you know you've invested in them. That investment's huge. And you're gonna be known, and I and there's a lot of agencies that that I represent or we represent that are considered training agencies because they hire people, not necessarily lower standards. And I try to preach don't lower your standards to hire people because you start higher uh hiring liabilities instead of assets. And when you do that, the zeros on the end gets bigger when you have to write a check for something that they did. Yeah. And they blame lap lack of training, so the county gets sued or the city gets sued because of the training uh situation. But it it's becoming a problem. You so if you can get the people in the door, we looked at some salary a while ago that Roman Forest just pushed some stuff out that they're offering incentive,$2,000 incentive to go to work for them. That's nice. The only other place to my knowledge in my region that does that is down in Beaumont. Yeah. And they offer uh$2,000 a year up to five years, which is$10,000, but you have to sign a three-year pitch with them. Yeah. Which I benefited from that when I went over there a long time ago. And they they paid me out and I gave them back with plus some, you know, what I owed them. So uh You know, but it this this brings up a good point.

Follow The Money And Demand Transparency

SPEAKER_02 27:14

And you talk about uh, you know, the surrounding agencies in this area. I would guesstimate right now, me working and living in an East Texas rule setting. And for all those rule listeners out there, whether you're a copy or not, or just a law enforcement supporter, I would like to look down, look at the spread, a spreadsheet or some kind of data that says Polk County residents that chose a career in law enforcement, I would like to see where they're at now. Because nine times out of ten, I guarantee it they're gonna be in Houston, PD, they're gonna be at Harris County, they're gonna go down to Beaumont. Half of those guys are probably at Texas DPS because they did a huge recurring uh recruiting surge about two or three years ago, and they're not local. And the reason why it's important to have local people that have either lived there, served there, or are from that area is because they know the terrain, they understand the culture, they know who's the shit bags and who's not. And that's why it's so crucial to have some type of competitive pay in a rural area, which brings to me to my point to segue into Senate Bill 22. When the Lightgov created this Senate bill, it was completely designed around having rural funding to law enforcement to keep them competitive with other cities and other municipalities that cannot fund it like they do, right? And so when she did what she did, talking about the county judge, she reduced the increase in salaries just for the law enforcement and maintain the other county employees the same wage. What kind of message does that send uh to the morale with the law enforcement leaders and boots on the ground here in Polk County and you having a better understanding of anybody of having the relationships you do here in Polk County? What message did that send to them?

SPEAKER_01 28:51

I think it's very discouraging for the uh for the deputies with our sheriff's department to see an opportunity where, with the assistance of the legislature, they're going to hopefully get to a point where they're earning some sort of competitive wage. Yeah. Uh that Senate Bill 22 money was never in and of itself uh designed to be the complete fix to pay. Yeah, there's some problems with it. There's some problems with it. It was to assist counties uh or to partner with counties, particularly rural counties, uh, to help them get up to a competitive salary to allow them to somewhat compete with larger jurisdictions that were nearby, such as Montgomery County, for example, right here in East Texas or Harris County. You know, knowing that you're never gonna get quite to that point, you know, maybe with some of the other benefits, uh tangible and intangible, you could still create an attractive work environment that would cause people to stay here. But in this particular instance, our county administration used the Senate Bill 22 money as an opportunity to give greater wages to non-law enforcement, non-jail staff. And in my opinion, that's completely defeating the purpose uh and intent behind the Senate Bill 22 money.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

Let me dumb that down for you for those listening. Essentially, what happened is that County Judge Sidney Murphy had a set plan for the set raise that all county employees were going to receive. Let's just say I think it was was it six percent?

SPEAKER_01 30:27

I don't three uh four percent. It was across the board uh three thousand dollar a year raise for non-law enforcement, non-jail staff, and a fourteen hundred dollar raise for law enforcement in jail.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

So let me get this straight.$3,000 to anybody that's non-law enforcement. If your law enforcement, because the office you work for receives a Senate bill 22 funding from the light gov, and because they do partake in that, that was granted by our state legislators, she reduces the salary as a punishment.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Essentially, what it is. Sure. Or at least not not give them the same benefit that was given to the other non-law enforcement employees.

Budget Growth Without Public Safety Gains

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Yeah, I tried her, I've seen her try to defend this on social media where she's been taken out to the woodshed for it.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

And she's trying to defend it and saying, oh, they got more, they got more, they got the same. But what she did is she cut the cola that she gave everybody else and supplemented the cola with the SB22 instead of giving them the cola and giving them the SB22 money, which is meant to pay salaries for first police officers and corrections and buy equipment related to those jobs.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Yeah, and what's funny is is with us just diving into this, we found out that she herself, over the last several years, has received significant pay increases, and then one tried to hide essentially a vehicle allowance that was significantly increased that was well over what she gave all the other county employees. Let's talk about that real quick.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Do we have those fund those numbers? I do. In fiscal year 25, which was the first year that the Senate Bill 22 money came came into our county budget. Uh, the Sheriff's Department, of course, the Sheriff's Department, of course, got the$1,400 additional funding that I mentioned earlier. Uh, but at the same time, the county judge and the commissioners voted themselves a 10% raise in that same budget fiscal year 25 year, which amounted to about a$7,000 a year raise for the county judge and the commissioners. The very following year, the current budget year that we're in 26, they voted themselves an increase of approximately$4,000 in their vehicle allowance. Our county judge has a$20,000 a year vehicle allowance, which I'm I'm not aware of any anybody that gets that. No, no, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

That's crazy. And listen, what what's what's really interesting is this is just pole county, right? TNPA can't remain committed just to exposing all elected politicians. We were we were brought to this by several concerned members of law enforcement and said, man, this is right. And and again, that's the only reason why we're involved. But but our my my personal message to those out there that are in law enforcement that are listening to this, me and Robbie can tell y'all, is that be aware, be aware of what's going on with your elected officials and see where the money and follow the money and see where how how it's affecting your the long-term paycheck, your retirement. And if you identify problems, man, give us a call because this would not have started uh if it weren't for concerned members of saying, time out, wait a minute. We're getting screwed out of this because of Senate Bill 22 funding, and this is not the way it should be. And we will gladly, uh, regardless if you're a member of TMPA or not, we're gonna do the right thing. And I think doing the right thing is identifying problems and identifying people that are pro-law enforcement and identifying the ones that are not pro-law enforcement. And historically, we've we've seen her the the voting pattern from this county judge being Sidney Murphy, that she's not pro-law enforcement because she tries to hide uh the bottom dollar.

Jail Staffing Crisis And Outsourcing Inmates

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Yeah, and to the point that people think this this current controversy regarding deputy funding is political, uh, it's not. Uh our sheriff's department has been begging and pleading for salary increases for at least the last six or seven years. Now, to the extent that an election is an opportunity for people to become aware of problems in county government and areas that need fixing or correcting, yeah, it's an opportune time to have that discussion because it forces the public to, I guess, focus on issues going on within the county. And so, I guess to the extent it's related to politics, yeah, it's a great time for the people of this county to hear and understand how underfunded our sheriff's department is, how how poorly paid our deputies are, and what a real public safety consequence there is um in not adequately funding law enforcement in this county because we're talking life and death. We're talking the ability to successfully prosecute cases that are investigated by less than experienced officers because everybody else has left and gone to other better paying counties. Uh, you know, and I worry that to the general public, there's this uh uh not an appreciation for the degree of the problem unless and until you or somebody you know is a victim. There you go. And then you become aware that the problem is very real. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

Unfortunately. We testified, me and Robbie were in the Capitol last year, uh, last session, I believe, uh, for our Capitol Day. And one of the statements that one of the law enforcement leaders made was this was that poor decisions made today have repercussions in the future. And I think that what you're to your point is that the bad decisions that continue to happen out of this death can make, you know, the commissioner's court, let's just face it, the gang judge is the leader of that commissioner's court. To your point is that that's what's scaring us today, is that it it it may not be affecting you today, but when you do need that, you're gonna want that to be available, right? So bad decisions today have repercussions in the future. And so that's what we're trying to prevent. Uh, you know, we're certainly not giving any endorsement at the local level, but we're damn sure gonna identify problems that we see uh in in a voting pattern that is anti-law enforcement.

Lessons From Defund And Regional Pay Gaps

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Yeah, this is an issue the county judge has to do is gonna have to deal with sooner or later. But I think uh some of this burden falls on the commissioners as well. Yeah. Because the commissioners sit back and they have to see what's going on, especially when they see significant raises on their paycheck. And you're you're cutting the sheriff's office and and our first responders out in Polk County, but they allow that to happen. Now, from what I've been told by some folks that I've speak with, and I speak with a lot of folks, is that every time they try to go against the judge that she belittles them and tries to mute them and uh runs the shell game on them and they sit back and they take it and they just get on down the road. That's crazy. And yeah, it is crazy. And that's that's and I've I've and I know that's happened, and nothing against the leadership of the Polk County Sheriff's Department in Texas here. There's you got some good folks over there leading. The sheriff is a great guy. I know him. Uh his command staff are great folks over there. They're all fighting the same fight that that is is right for their officers and their deputies and their correction officers. The hardest thing to do in police work is to hire a person, a brand new person. It's a lot of trust in that person. People leave two main reasons people leave law enforcement corrections toxic leadership, which is not at Polk County Sheriff's Office. Right. Now, outside of that, that's kind of why we're here. And the second thing is uh a bad economic benefits package or a poor economic benefits package. That's why people are leaving and going to smaller cities, Livingston, PD, on Alaska, PD, for God's sake, Roman Forest, they're gonna lose people to Roman Forest. I know that's gonna happen. And getting out of this area altogether, going down to Montgomery County or even going to Harden County and making significant more money in Harden County, which is just north of Beaumont, Jefferson County. Yeah. Um, that's an issue, and that's gonna have to be addressed. So to see, and I saw some things this morning on social media before I made the trip up here that she posted out something about people stalking her on social media and kind of uh put them in the same category as pedophiles.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

Well, you can't you can't make that argument and be an elected official. That's just not how it works. If you're gonna be an elected official, then you are happy the citizens and people who put you in that position have the right to see what's going on there.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Absolutely. And I think, and I know she's gonna listen to this podcast because it's gonna make us make its way through her really quick, uh, really quick. And that's a good thing. She needs to listen to this. And we'd invite her to be on a podcast to answer hard questions because as a county judge, at some point you're gonna have to answer hard questions, questions that are not really, really favorable in your 10 years of tenure at the county judge position. But she needs to address some of these things publicly and not go on defense because when you go on defense so much, it looks like you're absolutely guilty of it, which the numbers don't lie. She is absolutely guilty of all of it. Yep. Now, what has she done for Polk County in the last 10 years? It's looked the same as it always has been every time I've driven through it. And the last time I was here wasn't too long ago, and there's a there's a a weed patch going up through the concrete mixer sitting on the front yard of the courthouse. I don't understand that.

Public Defender Office Debate And Priorities

SPEAKER_01 38:57

I don't even make one observation in that same vein. Um in the time that our current administration has been in charge of our county budget, uh basically the last 10 or 11 years, the county budget has increased by nearly 75%, and county revenues have also increased by the same amount, nearly 75%. Whereas the rate of inflation uh in this area, I think according to the federal statistics, is around 25%. So we're we're growing our county government at nearly twice the rate of inflation. We just went over$50 million on our county budget for the first time in the FY26 fiscal year. And there doesn't seem to be any noticeable benefit from that degree of spending and taxing. Yeah. It's certainly not in our sheriff's department, and uh it's certainly not in the wages of our our sheriff's department. So uh yeah, a lot of people are rightly asking question the question, where is all this money, where's all this money going, and what are we getting in return for this level of tax decisions? What did the county judge do prior to being the county judge? What qualified her to be the county judge? Her background is in education as a teacher and a counselor, and for a period of time she was the director of the local chamber of commerce. But uh yeah, that was that was her issue. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

No construction, no construction ties that could be tied to uh, you know, the the ongoing six six-year construction debacle that's going on downtown. I'm not setting I'm not saying anything, I'm just throwing it out there.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Surely she's a likable, she was a likable person back in those days, and I'm sure she was. I mean, I I really believe that when she started this position as county judge 10 years ago, their heart was in the right place. But for me looking at it and us looking at it, and you're a little bit close to it than we are, Lee, from the 30,000 foot view that it seems like she's lost her way. Yeah. You have to make public safety a priority in your county or your city, or your your area is gonna fall completely apart and be riddled with crime. You're spending more money hiring cops to get them in in corrections to get them here, and then they train and they leave, and you're turning back around, invest the same amount of dollars to get somebody else in, and they're leaving. We got to keep these folks here. Yeah. And I don't know what it takes. Look,$49,400 starting pay in Polk County as a deputy. Yeah. With Senate Bennett. SB22 money. Which is just$1,000 more than a minimum standard set by SB22, right? Which is$48,000. Would the county judge here be willing to suit up and make less than$50,000 a year? The same thing that she's asking other people to do and expect other people to do? Right. I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna guess no. I I would think no. I I would think no too.

Voting Dates, Calls To Get Informed

SPEAKER_02 41:38

To your point, though, public safety should not be a bipartisan issue. No, absolutely not. And and that's that's kind of where we're at. And it's sad that, you know, um it's come down to it. But we're look, we're looking maybe to some, if anything else, if if if she becomes victorious uh over this election, then we're looking at working with her and her administration to to try to correct uh some of the failures that we've identified during this uh during some of the things that we've seen.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

We have yeah, we have ideas, and I I mean of course I do contracts down in Southeast Texas. There's a lot of uh a lot of incentives that you can do, um, and a lot of things you could do. And I've talked with the sheriff's office here, they're more willing to do it, but it gets they hit a brick wall and they go to the courthouse, talk to the county judge. That's a problem. Yeah. And you're right, Tyler. I'd be more than happy to sit down with her and share some ideas of what's going on around her as far as pay to get things paid right where it should be, or at least better than less than 50 grand a year here. That's crazy. Uh, but that's just it's just one of those things where we have to make noise because the sheriff's office, the guys that work over there are scared to be retaliated against against this county judge. And just as much as, and I I would imagine the county commissioners as well are maybe intimidated by her. Uh, I'm not sure, but she is, she does control the county. I get it. She was elected to. But the citizens need to listen to this, pay attention, and look around before they go vote to make sure this is what they want to continue to stick with. Yeah. What's going to cause your problems, and these problems which seem small now are going to continue to grow. Yeah. And it's going to be a legitimate issue here.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

Well, and you and I can contest to this is that sometimes when when departments pay a little bit less, as a young 25, 22-year-old cop, you know, you can you can say, okay, well, they pay less, but man, there's so many opportunities for off-duty that I could go make a little bit extra jobs and work a lot. There's not a that's that there is not a whole lot of extra job opportunity in Polk County. Let's call it what it is. No, you got to leave out of Polk County with permission of your structure sheriff to do that. And so to that point, is that you're there there's no opportunities here to make more money if you want to, uh, as there would be in more urban type environments. Right.

Rapid-Fire: Movies, Cars, And Old-Fashioneds

SPEAKER_00 43:39

But you guys you have guys that work at the sheriff's office been there for a long time, but they're willing to stick it out to see what happens. But how much of that can they take? Right. That's my question. How much can you're going to start losing really, really highly qualified, experienced police officers for another to another county or city because the county judge won't get off her ass and fund the sheriff's office. That has to Happen. And then the the corrections, you the facilities, I'm not sure about the facilities. I know that they're understaffed. They're so understaffed they have to take their prisoners and send them to a jail in Louisiana on contract to house them in Louisiana. Good gosh. Which when I found out about that, that blew me away. I mean, I could see the neighbor a neighboring county, but not another state.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

Yeah, that's a problem. It's not because we don't have the capacity in our jail to house those inmates. We have the room. We just don't have the jail staff to comply with the jail commission standards, the staffing ratios for the number of inmates that they have. And the reason we don't have the jail staff is because they're as underpaid as the deputies are. They can go to work for TDCJ here locally or another agency and make significantly more money. So we have the same, the same talent drain in our jail as we have in our uh in our law enforcement ranks.

Events, Trainings, And Closing Message

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Gosh, well, yeah, they usually usually leave TDCJ to go to work for a kid and make more money. Yeah, it's totally backwards. But well, you know, did they not learn anything from the defund movement where it doesn't work? I mean, I guess, and I don't want to say the only good thing that come out of the George Floyd, the defund movement and all that, because that was a that was a whole issue. But they've really learned that places that elected to defund their police department was a complete, total failure. Since then, you have county judges and city councils and commissioners' courts that have seen that public safety has to be a priority. They've really made paying they're paying police officers now what they're worth. You're never gonna pay them what they're worth, in my opinion. I mean, that's what I that's my career, that's what I do. But they're they're being paid a better wage now to go out and fight crime and risk their lives to defend the public for people that don't even know. Right. And that you know, it takes a special person to do that. Yep, it really does. So that come out of the the defund movement where we gotta pay people more. The people that were paying attention caught on to that. They said, Oh, we we gotta get our shit in gear and do that, and they have done that, and that's why you see salaries of you know, six figures in the Houston metro area and down where I'm from in Southeast Texas, you have six figures there topping out at you know, a Beaumont. And I know Polk County can't compare to Beaumont, but when you're topping out as a grade one after 10 years at$125,000,$126,000.

SPEAKER_02 46:10

But what's interesting, I guarantee, if I look at the household medium in b in this city within the city of Beaumont and Polk County, I would be shocked if they were not as similar similar than what you would think.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

Probably so. This county has a fair amount of money, yeah, but it's just on how the judge elects to spend it. Right. And she's not spending it, spending it to public safety. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

We uh I did a very informal Facebook poll a number number of months back and asked uh people in this area, you know, what are what are your most important priorities in terms of what you expect from county government? Uh law enforcement and emergency services came in at resounding shot number one. Yeah. And right behind that was county infrastructure and roads. And uh so the things that most people would expect their county government to be prioritizing and taking care of. Um, I think the thing that added a lot of insult to injury in regard to our current priorities is in this current fiscal year, our county judge, instead of really pushing hard for for increases in deputy pay, uh, she kind of through a backdoor um effort uh sought to create a uh public defender's sauce. We didn't even talk about that. Yeah, I forgot about that. In our county with a a budget of a million dollars a year, they procured a grant that was uh that would expire in in less than five years, four years, I believe. It was a decreasing grant, but uh with partial state funding. But at the end of the five-year period of time, the county was going to be on the hook for a million dollars a year in salaries and administrative costs for a public defender's office. So we're prioritizing taking care of our criminals or accused more than we are and that's what's shocking.

SPEAKER_02 47:46

And I'm not suggesting that that East Texas is stuck back in the in the Stone Age, but by God, me being I mean, I lived in East Texas for a long time and I lived exactly where you guys were talking about in this area. East Texas has always stood up for law and order. Period. They don't have the wacko bullshit that Austin's gotten. And what she's doing in funding that type of defender's office, it's not about equality, it's not about it, it it's a trend. She's she's setting a trend for something that this area has typically never really supported. And if you're gonna support that, that's fine. But make damn sure the public safety isn't isn't left unattended, or or at least they got the funding that they should have. And that's what's been shocking to me is that East Texas always has stood for law and order and backing the police. And the fact that she she did exactly what she did, that's some Austin Jose Garza crazy shit. You know, it really is. This has been a great episode. I can't thank you enough, Lee, for coming on. Early voting starts February 17th. It continues the last day of early voting, February 20th. And uh, excuse me, the last day of early voting is February 27th. So let me repeat those dates again. Early voting February 17th through February 27th, and the last day to vote is March 3rd. Make your voices be heard. We can't tell you who to vote for here at TNPA, but we can damn sure educate you on what the options are. The last questions we got are some rapid fire uh here at TNPA. We'd like to ask some of the guests. And I hope you studied. I hope Robbie kind of gave you the answer. I didn't think I didn't tell them about that. They're pretty basic. They're pretty basic, but what's your favorite line from a cop movie or your favorite cop movie? Oh, Dirty Harry. That's a simple one answer. I like that. I don't know how much if you've ever served in law enforcement or not, but you damn sure are the head of the district attorney's office, so you probably had your fair share inside police cars. What's your favorite patrol car?

SPEAKER_01 49:34

Oh my goodness, I go all the way back to the Impalas when when those were still a go-training. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 49:39

Those are good. It's the old shamu type top down. Okay. And what's your favorite drink of choice when Lehan is relaxing and trying to get away from not only Polk County politics, but law and order? And old-fashioned, of course.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

That is the official TMPA drink.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

Yeah. What with any special bourbon you like to put with that?

SPEAKER_01 49:56

Oh, top shelf, of course.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

Yeah, good. Yeah, yeah. There you go. Well, man, I can't thank you enough. Great meeting you today. We're gonna do some videos here in a little bit talking about Polk County and talking about what you're able to do and serve our members in East Texas. Robbie, man, it's always good seeing you, man.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

Yeah, it's good to hang out, man. What I'd like to do is encourage the voters, actually the citizens of Polk County, get out and vote. Yeah. Vote, but educate yourself before you do that. If you're if you're good of a status quo, then then vote that way. But if you need to see change and everything we brought here, we just scrape the top of it, really. Uh there's so much more to look at. Uh vote different. Yeah. Just vote different. That's all you have to do. And it's up to the community to do that. Yep, for sure, for sure. Good to see you, Tyler. You too, man, for sure. It's always good to hang out with you.

SPEAKER_02 50:38

Listen, Lee, you're more than welcome to come to our TNPA conference. It's going to be July 24th through the 26th. They're in Dallas, Texas, at the High Rio City downtown Dallas. It's going to be a full weekend of TNPA fun activity. He's going to shake some things up right now. We're getting some things finalized. Might do the casino night Saturday night as opposed to Sunday night. But we're going to have our TNPA banquet there on Sunday. We will be streaming it live, so be sure to look out for the social media push-outs. All uh along with, we are going to do live the Texas Peace Office tomorrow this year. It's going to be the last weekend of April. So we're going to be there on scene along with all the fallen uh heroes families and honor them the way that they should be honored. Uh, if you haven't already, already learned or listened to, Force Science is also coming to Round Rock. It's good, they're going to have their conference in the Round Rock, I believe it's the Hyatt. Uh, they're September 26th and 27th. We're going to be involved with that and pushing the information out. So a lot of things going on across the state. You guys tune in to our uh our our social media uh pages at Instagram and Facebook and also our website, tmpa.org. Thanks again, Lee, for having us. Uh, greatly appreciate it. Greatly, greatly appreciate you uh assisting us with the information we were provided with with some of our concerned members, and hopefully we can get this thing corrected. You guys take care, stay safe. God bless you, and as always, may God bless Texas.